Kreta

Chas

Elder Member
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
2,330
Reaction score
1,362
Country
llUnited States
Gents,

Not really my place to comment, but some things have been stated here that I feel need some comment on. I had some limited oversight at times of the R4 process, and know something about what happened. For me that was a time of constant deployments so I was in and out.

Pittman is absolutely correct that the publisher is responsible, no ifs, ands, buts about it. However, he made some assumptions about the R4 process that are incorrect, and is now using this against HoB. HoB just did not decide to send out the backwards printed counters and sobeit. The problem was that things were set, and then it was one printer shipping counters to another printer. The counter printer on their own did the diecutting the way they did without informing anyone and shipped to the other printer. I cant remember exactly when this became fully known to HoB, but it was after printer 2 had collated and shrinkwrapped everything. IIRC shipping had already begun, but I am not 100% sure. Bottom line is that they did not just shrug it off and do it just because. And I can state that once HoB found out, Steve and I were both immediately trying to work with them to get the reprint done.

The printer in the past decided on their own to just cut off those nuisance half hexes, which caused a problem with BtB. This was after everything was approved. So this kind of stuff happens. Yes the publisher is still responsible for fixing the problem in some way. However, it seems as if Steve had a set standard and the printer did not follow it.

I know it is out of place for me to comment on this, but I feel I had to tighten some innaccurate information.

Chas
 

MajorDad

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
97
Reaction score
120
Location
KY
Country
llUnited States
So, Home sick today and the ups man just brought another 4 boxes of Kretas, Do I ship them or wait a few weeks until some resolution of the map (if any) is done?
Steve,

Since you asked I say wait. By asking it seems like you are taking a poll to decide if you should fix the problem. Either you should acknowledge the map is an issue and fix it or state the map is not an issue and start shipping.

"Well Lieutenant, people are dieing; Make a decision"!
 

MrP

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2003
Messages
4,865
Reaction score
417
Location
Woof? Bark? Whine?
Country
llNew Zealand
I am amazed that if a module has some poor scenarios and good components then the module is labeled bad. If the module has poor components but good scenarios it is good. To me it is the total package.
I'll take quality scenarios and "poor" components over the reverse any day of the week. I agree they should both be good, but without quality scenarios a product is nothing but artwork. Pretty but useless for the purpose of playing ASL.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,091
Reaction score
2,307
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Do I ship them or wait a few weeks until some resolution of the map (if any) is done?
Only you have any idea about the map issue, in terms of whether or not there is a chance it will be reprinted and if so, by when. If it is really iffy at this point, most people would probably prefer you to ship at this point, otherwise, they will be in limbo.
 

arno_FR

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
94
Reaction score
0
Location
France
Country
llFrance
So, Home sick today and the ups man just brought another 4 boxes of Kretas, Do I ship them or wait a few weeks until some resolution of the map (if any) is done?
I want mine as well.
I preordered it and you told me that you didn't shipped any overseas yet.
But I preordered it to have it fast ;)

So again, I don't care about that paper thickness drama. I just want to play it.
Ship it to me, please.

Thanks
 

Whizbang1963

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
2,580
Reaction score
107
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
I've thought a lot about this issue since all the issues have been raised and I've come to the following conclusion:

Everyone, myself included, seems to have forgotten that if you don't like Kreta you can always return it.

I'm not seeing on anyone's website that "all sales are final" or "no returns" or "no exchanges"

As long as you have not damaged or punched the contents, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that HOB would take it back.

Admittedly it's expensive for them to do this, but if they had to return more than just a few copies, they'd probably work to ensure that not just the proof copies were correct; and they'd hold the printer more accountable for the quality they deliver.

While none of us wants to do that, if the product is truly so inferior to your "standard" of what is and what is not acceptable quality, don't keep it.

I think we all tend to be very quick to jump and criticize and force people to defend themselves because we forget that we have the power of any other group making purchases, the power of the "I'm not satisfied, I want to return it".

I believe most would like to see HOB continue moving forward with new products. And as much as the criticism stings, I'm guessing HOB will be watching a lot more closely moving forward as no one likes to lose money or customers.

We all need to step back for a second. Wait until we get our own copies and then decide for ourselves what to do.

If it's great, right on! Hate it, return it. But make your own decision. Don't let everyone else sway you one way or the other.


off my soapbox..apologize in advance if I offend.
 

hershmeister

Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
762
Reaction score
24
Location
nashville TN
Country
llUnited States
Steve - having not yet ordered a copy, I would be interested to know what you plan for the map. I have tons of stuff that I havent played yet, so I am happy waiting to hear from you how things may/may not work out regarding the map.

I would prefer a map which doesnt have easy tearing issues (if thats the best way to describe what folkd are talking about), and would be happy waiting for a fix.

I have been a HOB customer since they came out with BRT - with its cut and paste maps and unmounted counters - I still had a blast with that game and have been impressed with HOB as they continued their product evolution. Have they made mistakes? I suppose so, but everyone makes mistakes - its how you handle adversity that defines a customer experience - that being said, HOB has always done the right thing by me.

its easy on the internet to miss the human connection - givign someone the benefit of the doubt, allowing for the chance that an error was not mailicious, and permittting the possibility someone may have done something wrong and not even have know about it.

Take a deep breath everyone.....

now exhale.....

In Again...

Hold it....
out....

now dont you all feel better?

hersh
 

Loquitor

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
1,759
Reaction score
137
Location
Orlando, Florida
Country
llUnited States
...... and please go ahead and play Kreta on the other 100s of hexes on the map. ........
Why didn't I think of that :mad: With that in mind my map problems are really trivial...I just need to have my attitude adjusted.....pay money...shut up there we go.






Yes I am a little pissy right now
 

Loquitor

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
1,759
Reaction score
137
Location
Orlando, Florida
Country
llUnited States
>I
The quality of the paper map has never been an issue for me. I never even noticed the quality of the Kreta map until I saw all the b1tching on this topic. I unfolded it, spread it out, admired it, folded it back up and never noticed a thing until the nitpickers came along.
I am sorry I said anything about my map. I am sorry I am a "nitpicker" because my map has damage. Screw it..........
 

Portal

The Eminem of ASL
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,348
Reaction score
56
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
Stevedeth,

I'm curious to know why you weren't more thorough when you reviewed the final batch of map "proofs" from your printer. If I was about to ship 1000+ paper copies of items I have customers paying for, I would take close care to final look and feel of final product before the product left the door.

As a prospective customer, I'm turned off from HOB, not because the Kreta map is "too thin", but that your company released a product that you knew did not meet your own internal production specifications. And is still debating what it's going to do about it.
 

macca

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2004
Messages
213
Reaction score
1
Location
Australia
Country
llAustralia
Murray,

I am not one of the designers, but have close ties to them.

First, one of the designers lives in New Zealand and the primary source were the records in the New Zealend archives.

Some oof the secondary sources are (not complete):

Price of Surrennder - Ernst Walker
Battle for Crete - John Hall Spencer
The Lost Battle - Callum MacDonald
Beamer's book on the battle for Crete
A Unique Sort of Battle - edited by Megan Hutching
The Osprey book
After the Battle magazine

This is not the complete list, but a quick list report.

J R B
Thanks for the info. I think the whole issue of the Kiwi position on the hill above the airfield is one of the great (and least discussed) what-ifs of the war (in the annals of the Commonwealth forces in any case) - not one which would have decided the fate of nations, but one which posed an interesting tactical and operation dilemma for the defenders.
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,256
Reaction score
883
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
I am sorry I said anything about my map. I am sorry I am a "nitpicker" because my map has damage. Screw it..........
See my post from oh so long ago.....

you are not a nit picker because you want a product to be right......

Peace

Roger
 

RobZagnut

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
1,376
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
>As a prospective customer, I'm turned off from HOB, not because the Kreta map is "too thin", but that your company released a product that you knew did not meet your own internal production specifications. And is still debating what it's going to do about it.

You never answered my previous question.

Seems to me you're just blowing smoke just to pile on HoB. You've already made one comment and when you were called on it refused to answer, so here we go again.

Are you going to answer my previous question in this topic?
 
Last edited:

Stevedeth

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
334
Reaction score
24
Location
Chicago IL
Country
llUnited States
Portal,

Thanks for paying attention. The part about the proofs were good and I did not detect a problem with the production copy that I opened? If you want me to open each copy of shrink wrapped product then I may have to hire some umpaloompas to look at it, unless you want to come over and do it. It not like we said tuff **** after the problems manifested, we are trying to work it out the problem but some of you still seem to think that we are just out to screw you. This is what I am talking about let me sort it out if you don't want to buy anything in the future fine I don't want to sell it to you. There are now four people on that list that we will not accept orders from.

In case you all missed it. Sorry that there is an issue with the Thinness of the map, IT WAS NOT INTENDED AND NOT CAUGHT IN TIME I APOLOGISE FOR THE OVERSIGHT. I AM IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PRINTER TO SEE IF ANYTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT. IF YOUR MAP IS SO BAD THAT YOU CANNOT PLAY ON IT THEN CONTACT ME DIRECTLY AND WE WILL WORK SOMETHING OUT.
 
Last edited:

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,497
Reaction score
2,186
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
Only you have any idea about the map issue, in terms of whether or not there is a chance it will be reprinted and if so, by when. If it is really iffy at this point, most people would probably prefer you to ship at this point, otherwise, they will be in limbo.
I think that is sound advice.

It may be best to ship Creta as it is - and then think about a reprint in the future for the map. As someone said you could take pre-orders to see how many people are interested in paying for a reprinted map.

I feel many players would be willing to spend a little on an new thicker and tougher map. Of course no one *HAS* to buy the new map, but if they feel it is worth their investment then they could do. Some players might just settle for the original thin map and be happy with it.

I know HOB have had maps reprinted in the past - didn't BRV has a second edition map? CH are doing things like this all the time and *charging* for the reprints; which people are happy (or not as the case may be) to pay for.

Its not the end of the world. We know there is an issue with the map; so provisions can be made for a possible re-print in the future - as long as it is financially possible and viable!! HOB has to be careful not to go bust over this issue.
 

Klaus Fischer

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
359
Reaction score
2
Location
Germany
Country
llGermany
Guys,
this is not frustrating because of you, or you (rightly) criticising.
It is so frustrating because it happens time and again - no matter how hard we try (in my case tried), the **** hits the fan again and again.
Of course, everyone of us has worked with printers berfore, and everyone of us would have never accepted anything, everyone would have done it better - in hindsight.
Yes, of course you can say:"Hey, just don't pay the printer till he fixes it"
****, we did this, but the printer just shrugged - he had our initial advance payment, and didn't care - or one of them even went out of business. Regardless, our advanced payment was gone.
We all worked our butts off, to get these products out - they are done with our fullest support, our blood, our sweat and out tears. But again, something went wrong.
This is just one of the reasons Chas parted from HoB.
I'm not even playing ASL any longer, and I'm not doing anything for ASL any longer - again, I'm not blaming anyone - it is the situation itself - and for me it is simply not worth the hassle - for me (personally) ASL is dead *period*

As said, we try. We try very, very hard (don't even bother to ask if we have proofers and proof readers) - but by now, I think we're cursed.

I think (again this is my very personal view) we at HOB did our best to push the envelope, I think we created some of the best pieces of ASL you can find. But it just wasn't enough (for whatever reason).
For a while it was worth the stress, the frustration, but also the fun.
For me, this is no longer the case.
Cheers
Klaus
 

Khill

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
2,177
Reaction score
758
Location
MAINE
Country
llIceland
As a prospective customer, I'm turned off from HOB, not because the Kreta map is "too thin", but that your company released a product that you knew did not meet your own internal production specifications. And is still debating what it's going to do about it.
And yet you continually kiss CH a$$:crosseye:
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,256
Reaction score
883
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
"You never answered my previous question."

Hello!

The question where you asked him if he owns any CH products?

What does CH have to do with this?

Frankly this is the type of situation that all the CH bashers would coming out the wood work to pile on......

As soon as Gamers Armory has their Ketes, I plan on buying it. I already know I will probably not be happy with the map as I am tough on my ASL stuff. But I am glad I do know to be careful with it. I plan on cutting it and having it laminated at this point (depending on cost anyway).

Peace

Roger
 
Last edited:
Top