J19 Merzenhausen Zoo (Pre game NTC ?)

Aaron Cleavin

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,094
Reaction score
571
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.

2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,132
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.
Play begins with the first RPh, when the Americans line up their first turn reinforcements. Any action that takes place "prior to the start of play" would take place before the beginning of the first RPh, i.e. before the Americans set up their first turn reinforcements.

JR
 

Steven Pleva

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
3,331
Reaction score
854
Location
Connecticut
Country
llUnited States
I would guess that the NTC's happen after the American setup. Otherwise, the SSR would be worded "after German setup" instead of "before play". Besides, as you calculated, it would give the Americans a big advantage...

Steve
 

Aaron Cleavin

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,094
Reaction score
571
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
I think JRV is technically right, but as Steve says I think the advantage is large.

Before play "technically" is prior to American setup, as setup is the first action of the Rph.
 

AZslim

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
3,487
Reaction score
660
Location
Joe's garage
Country
llUnited States
I think the Americans need all the help they can get after MMP took a scenario from the HOW pack they considered to be pro American and slammed it so hard they made very very tough on them.

We played it that dummy 5/8's had to roll, effectively forcing the German not to use them and rolled for the rest after all setup. The Americans still lost.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,423
Reaction score
2,910
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
 

Aaron Cleavin

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,094
Reaction score
571
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
Thanks Klas, this still leves the timing question open. It feels wrong that the Americans get to configure their setup based on what they find out from the NTC.
 

trevpr1

ASL Player
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
5,651
Reaction score
729
Location
Preston
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I'm sure Chas Smith would be only too pleased to clarify, if you asked on the BFP sub forum he will spot it..
 

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,435
Reaction score
1,396
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.

2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
Too funny. I played this yesterday (first time).

I suggested to my opponent (and believe this is correct) that "before the start of play" means prior to Turn 1 RPh and therefore before American setup. My Germans nerfed this by only failing four TCs on the entire board, though, and only costing me bore sighting on one MMG.

Jim Torkelson's article in DftB10 suggests that you don't have to take the NTCs on the 5/8" dummies and I never really thought about it. Seems wrong, though, now that I consider it.

S
 

Chas

Elder Member
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
2,069
Reaction score
645
Country
llUnited States
I cannot officially answer, but the intent is for the NTC to happen after the American setup. If there is a Q and A on this that is my recommendation to MMP.

We have just recently realized the error in our ways and now specify within the ASOP more clearly when things like this happen. Yep, still learnin' :)

Chas
 

Kevin Kenneally

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
17,835
Reaction score
648
Location
Central Texas USA.
Country
llUnited States
I cannot officially answer, but the intent is for the NTC to happen after the American setup. If there is a Q and A on this that is my recommendation to MMP.

We have just recently realized the error in our ways and now specify within the ASOP more clearly when things like this happen. Yep, still learnin' :)

Chas
Thanx Chas......
 

J. R. Tracy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
1,076
Reaction score
310
Location
New York, NY
Country
llUnited States
Re the 5/8" dummies, when I've played this the German rolled for them but out of sight of his opponent; also, we rolled the NTCs after the American set up offboard, which is not technically correct but seemed to be in the spirit of the card. Finally, as for the balance, I'm happy to take the Americans in the MMP version, no problemo.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,273
Reaction score
2,072
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
This is a fragile defence scenario. The Germans can't really defend in depth and the flexiblity of the attackers means that once one part of the defence cracks, the attackers can burst it wide open.
 

Aaron Cleavin

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,094
Reaction score
571
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
This is a fragile defence scenario. The Germans can't really defend in depth and the flexiblity of the attackers means that once one part of the defence cracks, the attackers can burst it wide open.
Hence single "nut" formation the key
 
Top