J19 Merzenhausen Zoo (Pre game NTC ?)

Aaron Cleavin

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Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.

2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
 

jrv

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Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.
Play begins with the first RPh, when the Americans line up their first turn reinforcements. Any action that takes place "prior to the start of play" would take place before the beginning of the first RPh, i.e. before the Americans set up their first turn reinforcements.

JR
 

Steven Pleva

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I would guess that the NTC's happen after the American setup. Otherwise, the SSR would be worded "after German setup" instead of "before play". Besides, as you calculated, it would give the Americans a big advantage...

Steve
 

Aaron Cleavin

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I think JRV is technically right, but as Steve says I think the advantage is large.

Before play "technically" is prior to American setup, as setup is the first action of the Rph.
 

AZslim

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I think the Americans need all the help they can get after MMP took a scenario from the HOW pack they considered to be pro American and slammed it so hard they made very very tough on them.

We played it that dummy 5/8's had to roll, effectively forcing the German not to use them and rolled for the rest after all setup. The Americans still lost.
 

klasmalmstrom

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2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
Thanks Klas, this still leves the timing question open. It feels wrong that the Americans get to configure their setup based on what they find out from the NTC.
 

trevpr1

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I'm sure Chas Smith would be only too pleased to clarify, if you asked on the BFP sub forum he will spot it..
 

Spencer Armstrong

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Two questions on this

1. It says the NTC is prior to the start of play. Does this mean it is before the American off board setup. The words would suggest yes, but this would be a huge advantage to the Americans.

2. It says the NTC is on all infantry. Then states dummy stacks have to take the chec,k what about dummy 5/8 counters purporting to be vehicles. If these have to take the TC it seems a large American edge, also it kind of gives away which stacks are dummy vehicles even if passed
as the real vehicles don't have to take it.
Here is a Q&A:

J19 Merzenhausen Zoo
If I set up 5/8” dummies using the OB granted? counters, are they required to take an NTC per the last sentence of SSR4?
A. Yes, but such 5/8” Dummy stacks need not be specified as to exactly which 5/8” stack is taking a NTC.
Too funny. I played this yesterday (first time).

I suggested to my opponent (and believe this is correct) that "before the start of play" means prior to Turn 1 RPh and therefore before American setup. My Germans nerfed this by only failing four TCs on the entire board, though, and only costing me bore sighting on one MMG.

Jim Torkelson's article in DftB10 suggests that you don't have to take the NTCs on the 5/8" dummies and I never really thought about it. Seems wrong, though, now that I consider it.

S
 

Chas

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I cannot officially answer, but the intent is for the NTC to happen after the American setup. If there is a Q and A on this that is my recommendation to MMP.

We have just recently realized the error in our ways and now specify within the ASOP more clearly when things like this happen. Yep, still learnin' :)

Chas
 

Kevin Kenneally

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I cannot officially answer, but the intent is for the NTC to happen after the American setup. If there is a Q and A on this that is my recommendation to MMP.

We have just recently realized the error in our ways and now specify within the ASOP more clearly when things like this happen. Yep, still learnin' :)

Chas
Thanx Chas......
 

J. R. Tracy

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Re the 5/8" dummies, when I've played this the German rolled for them but out of sight of his opponent; also, we rolled the NTCs after the American set up offboard, which is not technically correct but seemed to be in the spirit of the card. Finally, as for the balance, I'm happy to take the Americans in the MMP version, no problemo.

JR
 

Vinnie

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This is a fragile defence scenario. The Germans can't really defend in depth and the flexiblity of the attackers means that once one part of the defence cracks, the attackers can burst it wide open.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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This is a fragile defence scenario. The Germans can't really defend in depth and the flexiblity of the attackers means that once one part of the defence cracks, the attackers can burst it wide open.
Hence single "nut" formation the key
 

Will Fleming

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Sorry to necro this thread, but "Dummy Stack" is not defined in the index. For that matter, I don't see "Stack" defined either. Of the 4 "Concealed Stacks" below, which of the following are "Dummy Stacks"?

A) 4x 1/2" concealment counters
B) 4x 1/2" concealment counters on top of an MMC
C) 1 MMC under 2x 5/8" concealment counters
D) 1 1/2" concealment counter below 2x 5/8" concealment counters

Some hopefully quick follow-ons.

  1. Is there a "Dummy Stack" inside the "Concealed Stack (B or C)" above?
  2. Since only 5/8" Dummy Stacks can pretend to be guns/vehicles, doesn't that imply that the 5/8" counters are a dummy stack (separate from the 1/2 'real' unit in case "C" above) i.e. could it pretend to 'drive off' and leave behind 2x 1/2" concealment counters?
A12.11 KNOWN/DUMMY ENEMY UNIT: A unit or stack of units beneath a "?" is not a Known enemy unit and cannot be inspected by the opposing player. If a hex contains both concealed and unconcealed units, the unconcealed units must be placed on top. If a scenario allocates a number of "?" available for setup at the start of the scenario, those "?" can be placed atop each other to act as Dummies—thus giving the mistaken impression of a stack of real counters beneath a "?" but a single such counter cannot be placed beneath unconcealed units. A stack of Dummies containing no real unit may be moved as if it contains a real unit (even to the extent of being able to move with leader/Double Time MF bonuses), but it is removed if it moves without Assault Movement (or into Open Ground) in the LOS of a Good Order enemy as per 12.14. A ⅝" Dummy stack can claim to be an Emplaced Gun (without Emplacement TEM) or a vehicle but, except for moving, is treated like a ½-inch Dummy stack for concealment loss. Before announcing any mine attacks exposed by the movement of a stack topped by a "?", the DEFENDER may force the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a non-Dummy unit in that stack to show that an actual force exists there. If he cannot, or if the stack is friendly to the DEFENDER, the Dummy stack is removed. Dummy stacks can be created only during initial setup and among OB-designated "?" reinforcements during their initial turn of entry. Multiple concealed units can combine into a concealed stack but must remove the top "?" counter from all but the original concealed (or Dummy) stack. A concealed stack under a single "?" can split into separate stacks; each new stack is topped with its own newly created "?". An unpossessed SW or other "non-unit" cannot gain/retain a "?".
 
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