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'Ol Fezziwig

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I didn't realize it was only Marines who were given barbarous treatment by the Japanese.
At that point on Guadalcanal, weren't there only MARINES ashore, or had the Guard been landed? At that point in the Pacific, for the US, I believe the brunt of the fighting was carried by the USMC.

Ultimately, yes, the Japanese proved equal opportunity barbarians (to follow your terminology)
 

Pitman

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At that point on Guadalcanal, weren't there only MARINES ashore, or had the Guard been landed? At that point in the Pacific, for the US, I believe the brunt of the fighting was carried by the USMC.
I don't know what point at Guadalcanal your anecdote is from, but there was really only one point when the "brunt" of the fighting was carried by the USMC. From December 1941 through May 1942, the brunt of the (American) fighting was carried on by the US Army. During the next couple of months there was no real land fighting by American troops (the real fighting in the 2nd half of 1942 was done by Australians, not USMC or US Army). In August, a Marine division landed at Guadalcanal and this unit provided the "brunt of the fighting" until November, when an Army division began fighting at Buna in New Guinea. Of course, Army troops had already been fighting on Guadalcanal in October. By December, Army troops outnumbered Marine troops on Guadalcanal, and from that point on in the PTO there were more Army divisions fighting than Marine divisions through the rest of the war. So there was only a 3-month period in the entire war when the Marines were doing the "brunt" of the fighting.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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I don't know what point at Guadalcanal your anecdote is from, but there was really only one point when the "brunt" of the fighting was carried by the USMC. From December 1941 through May 1942, the brunt of the (American) fighting was carried on by the US Army. During the next couple of months there was no real land fighting by American troops (the real fighting in the 2nd half of 1942 was done by Australians, not USMC or US Army). In August, a Marine division landed at Guadalcanal and this unit provided the "brunt of the fighting" until November, when an Army division began fighting at Buna in New Guinea. Of course, Army troops had already been fighting on Guadalcanal in October. By December, Army troops outnumbered Marine troops on Guadalcanal, and from that point on in the PTO there were more Army divisions fighting than Marine divisions through the rest of the war. So there was only a 3-month period in the entire war when the Marines were doing the "brunt" of the fighting.
You did catch where I'm taking my info from, right?

My statement about "bearing the initial brunt" is confirmed then; the duration of that "borne brunt" less important to the point, I guess.

Carlson's Long Patrol was, I think, early November '42-early December '42; during that time, they operated in a vacuum from other units on Guadalcanal, MARINE and Army alike. In fact, many thought his battalion was wiped out since they had no word of or from them during the 30 days until they tramped out of the jungle back into the perimeter.

At any rate, I think it easy to see that the MARINES and US Army had (and have, to this day) different manners of conducting warfare; I'm pleased with how ASL models this and am constantly drawn to use of the US Army (except in the revisionist 7 ML scenarios infecting the scenario pantheon of late) due to the challenge of using the (mostly) 6 ML Army squads. I do think a mix of 7 ML units is warranted occasionally, but also am of the opinion that the devil squads are more than capable of handling and acquitting themselves admirably.

YMMV
 
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pward

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but also am of the opinion that the devil squads are more than capable of handling and acquitting themselves admirably.
What, sounds too much like design for effect to me... are you sure devil squads are capable? Don't they break like dry twigs at a hint of incoming fire? :clown:
 

Ray Woloszyn

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It does present the collector with a unique challenge, but the fact they are hand-made and self-published kind of lets one off the hook in that regard.
I'd say you had a point but then there are those samizdat books from the former Soviet Union like from Solzhenitsyn (GULAG comes to mind) that fetch a pretty penny at auctions. Of course putty "Wild Bill" in such vaunted company might be a bit of a stretch.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I'd say you had a point but then there are those samizdat books from the former Soviet Union like from Solzhenitsyn (GULAG comes to mind) that fetch a pretty penny at auctions. Of course putty "Wild Bill" in such vaunted company might be a bit of a stretch.
That's the beauty of being a collector, though - you can define your own parameters to taste. ;) Collection parameters have a tendency to creep though; you buy one WBW module, and before you know it, you'll have to have them all...when I started with cap badges, it was only the overseas infantry regiments of the Canadian Army in the Second World War. Then I needed a shoulder flash to go with each one. Then when I got a couple of armoured regiment badges thrown in to an auction, I figured I might as well pick up all of those, too. Then the supporting corps... I have a feeling you know what I mean.
 
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I should preface this post with the fact I have neither seen nor am likely to see any of these modules.

One aspect I was wondring about. Given the existance of semi-automatic rifles in a "modern" squad against bolt action ones amoungst the NK or VC units I can see the case for a FP of 7,8 or even 9 for marines against 3-5 for the VC/NK. How would CC be handled? Particularly HtH CC would hat not be a factor of men rather than weapons. AS such are we looking at modern ASL having a distance and a close FP factor?

There are a lot of factual errors here.

There were two U.S. standard-issue rifles in the Vietnam Conflict: the M-14 (7.62x51mm) and M-16A1 (5.56x45mm). Both rifles were fully automatic.

During the bulk of the US actions in Vietnam (1965-1972), the NVA (aka Peoples' Army of the Republic of North Vietnam) standard issue rifle for frontline units was the Chinese Type 56 rifle (7.62x39mm), which is also a fully automatic rifle. The Type 56 was an AKM clone (itself an AK-47 variant). Prior to 1965, the NVA also used Chinese copies of the SKS (also 7.62x39mm) on a large scale, which were still used by second-line troops in the later period. It would be incredibly rare to see a bolt-action rifle in use by the NVA during the 1960s, but they would have been common amongst the Viet Minh in the 1950s.

Depending on the unit and time, bolt-action rifles, particularly copies of the M-44 Mosin Nagant, were relatively common amongst VC units. M-44 clones were made by China, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and other countries, who eventually replaced these rifles with their own versions of the SKS and/or AKM. M-1891/30s, M-44s and SKSs from East Bloc countries eventually found their way to South Vietnam as the Warsaw Pact standardized on the AKM and Czech vz-58 in the 1960s. The NVA also diverted all of their "outmoded" arms to the National Liberation Front.

Side Note: Most rifles commonly identified as "AK-47s" are in fact AKMs. AK-47s were only made by the Izmash and Tula Arsenals from 1948-1952. The AKM ("Kalashnikov Modified") is a simpler rifle to manufacture and is the actual model that has been "manufactured in the millions," not the comparatively rare AK-47.

The Mosin-Nagant rifles common amongst the Viet Cong and Viet Minh fired the 7.62x54Rmm cartridge, which is comparable in power to the .30-06 Springfield and 8m Mauser cartridges. From the standpoint of terminal ballistics, the Mosin-Nagant was the most powerful rifle on the Vietnam battlefield.
 
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I don't know what point at Guadalcanal your anecdote is from, but there was really only one point when the "brunt" of the fighting was carried by the USMC. From December 1941 through May 1942, the brunt of the (American) fighting was carried on by the US Army. During the next couple of months there was no real land fighting by American troops (the real fighting in the 2nd half of 1942 was done by Australians, not USMC or US Army). In August, a Marine division landed at Guadalcanal and this unit provided the "brunt of the fighting" until November, when an Army division began fighting at Buna in New Guinea. Of course, Army troops had already been fighting on Guadalcanal in October. By December, Army troops outnumbered Marine troops on Guadalcanal, and from that point on in the PTO there were more Army divisions fighting than Marine divisions through the rest of the war. So there was only a 3-month period in the entire war when the Marines were doing the "brunt" of the fighting.

It also established that some of the better Army divsions, such as the 25th, acquitted themselves at least as well as any Marine unit in the PTO.

In terms of morale, I would also argue that the 25th Division was comparable to the Marine and Air Cavalry units in the Vietnam theater in 1965 and 1966.
 

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It also established that some of the better Army divsions, such as the 25th, acquitted themselves at least as well as any Marine unit in the PTO.

Acquitted themselves better at what & when?

I am fairly certain that Army troops acquitted themselves better in ground combat than Marine units in the Phillipines in 1941-42 for a variety of reasons.

An opposed amphibious assault 1943 to 1945 to secure a beachhead in the PTO? I don't think so, the Marine Corps was indoctrinated, trained, organized and equipped to better perform this mission.

In sustained ground combat to defeat enemy ground forces after a beachhead had been secured? I think the facts support your statement.

Jeff
 
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Acquitted themselves better at what & when?

I am fairly certain that Army troops acquitted themselves better in ground combat than Marine units in the Phillipines in 1941 for a variety of reasons.

An opposed amphibious assault 1943 to 1945 to secure a beachhead in the PTO? I don't think so, the Marine Corps was indoctrinated, trained, organized and equipped to better perform this mission.

In sustained ground combat to defeat enemy ground forces after a beachhead had been secured? I think the facts support your statement.

Jeff
Points well taken.

The real dichotomy with the U.S. Army in the Pacific, at least according to many sources I have read, is the distinction between regular U.S. Army divisions and the so-called "National Guard" divisions. The "high-numbered" divisions usually did not fight particularly well. I got most of this from reading up on Okinawa.
 

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The high numbered divisions were draftee divisions, not national guard divisions.

However, the actual issue is far more complex. Some divisions just performed poorly throughout the war, such as the 32nd Division, which was sent unsupported into combat at Buna and performed poorly, but was still performing poorly on Luzon in 1945. The 43rd Division was another PTO division that performed relatively poorly throughout (especially in its first action on New Georgia, where it collapsed). These were both National Guard divisions. In contrast, though, other NG divisions in the PTO, such as the 37th Inf Division and the Americal Division, performed well throughout the war. Both of these units, notably, had an easier introduction to combat than the 32nd and 43rd.

Overall (not just PTO), historians seem to think that the combat record of the draftee divisions was a bit better collectively than that of the NG divisions. There weren't as many draftee divisions in the Pacific as in Europe, though, primarily because early on a number of divisions were rushed to the PTO and the NG ones tended to be ready before the draftee divisions. The latter were later sent primarily to Europe.
 
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The high numbered divisions were draftee divisions, not national guard divisions.

However, the actual issue is far more complex. Some divisions just performed poorly throughout the war, such as the 32nd Division, which was sent unsupported into combat at Buna and performed poorly, but was still performing poorly on Luzon in 1945. The 43rd Division was another PTO division that performed relatively poorly throughout (especially in its first action on New Georgia, where it collapsed). These were both National Guard divisions. In contrast, though, other NG divisions in the PTO, such as the 37th Inf Division and the Americal Division, performed well throughout the war. Both of these units, notably, had an easier introduction to combat than the 32nd and 43rd.

Overall (not just PTO), historians seem to think that the combat record of the draftee divisions was a bit better collectively than that of the NG divisions. There weren't as many draftee divisions in the Pacific as in Europe, though, primarily because early on a number of divisions were rushed to the PTO and the NG ones tended to be ready before the draftee divisions. The latter were later sent primarily to Europe.
Thank you for the clarification. I had thought "high-numbered" and "National Guard" were virtually synonymous.

At any rate, I totally got away from my original point: If someone is going to start handing out 8 or 9 Morale Factors to Marines and Air Cav in Vietnam, then the "regular" 25th Infantry division should also have the distorted morale factor in the early stages of U.S. escalation. (I would argue there was no significant difference in morale amongst U.S. ground forces in 1965, for example.) Since Special Forces would also undoubtedly have the distorted morale, that doesn't leave much left except the poor ARVN.

Most sources I have read also suggest that the morale of the VC and NVA units were exceptionally high during the mid-1960s also. If someone is going to hand out morale factors to U.S. troops like they are going out of style, then this would make the morale factor of a first-line NVA unit something like 9 or 10! By this rationale, a main line VC unit in 1970-1972 ought to have a morale of at least 10 or 11!

Good grief. That's what I call unconscionable. I have been playing ASL for something like two weeks now, and even I would know better than to hand out morale higher than 7 or 8 factors to an entire armed service (i.e. U.S. Marines).
 

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Yeah, he's doing real poorly. Not counting current auctions, I tally up $7131 and change, for thirty modules, since he started selling these in January. On average, 237 dollars a piece. I'm not saying money is more important than quality, but I think he must be doing something right if people are still not only paying for them but making all these green comments about him. ;) More power to him. Probably be a nicer hobby all told if people supported each other more instead of just tore each other down sight unseen, but I guess that's just me. I'll look forward to reading Mark's informed commentary on his website - weblink for anyone curious is here:

http://www.desperationmorale.com/worldofasl/worldfirsttofight.html
I wonder if he claims the $7131 and more as income on his taxes? Should be since he is selling something he created, not an old, used item.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I should put some early 'playtest stuff' up just to see what it would get.
You've got name recognition cachet. I wouldn't doubt you'd make money.

Your estate would make even more though if you want to do it the hard way. :devious:
 

Daniels

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If I remember correctly US regular Army division have numbers 1-25, ARNG 26-54, Organized Reserve all numbers after 55, this break out could was modified over time. The same is true for the regiment number Regular Army Regiments 1-100, ARNG 101- 300, Organized Reserve from 301 on. The reserve component units that stay in CONUS after mobilization where constantly supplying cadre for newly activated divisions and rapidly lost any regional or state flavor as opposed to those that deployed early. The 29th deployed early and remained relatively intact, the 26th on the other hand deployed later and received a lot of replacement from the Deep South, as they spent the early part of the war guarding the beaches of the North and South Carolina.
 
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Ray Woloszyn

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I wonder if he claims the $7131 and more as income on his taxes? Should be since he is selling something he created, not an old, used item.
Remember, IRS offers a 10% reward of unpaid taxes for turning someone in who is secreting income:devious:

We're still wondering in our financial ranks who turned in our Tyco CEO, Dennis Kozlowski. If you see me buying some of this "Wild Price" stuff, perhaps you'll know the answer.
 
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Remember, IRS offers a 10% reward of unpaid taxes for turning someone in who is secreting income:devious:

We're still wondering in our financial ranks who turned in our Tyco CEO, Dennis Kozlowski. If you see me buying some of this "Wild Price" stuff, perhaps you'll know the answer.
Brak śniegu w lawiny zawsze czuje się odpowiedzialny.

EDIT: I can't rep you for 24 hours! BTW, that's not the translation of the above. Hopefully, Ray knows this famous Polish aphorism.
 
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