Kreta

Roadtogundagai

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Ok, Guys, this note is with a bit of frustration so I reserve the right to take it back. I really don't understand Majordad hearing things for the grapevine that we will do or not do anything. I have not even concidered that decision yet so whatever you heard was utter ********.

As for the counters on Recon 4, one of the most anal people in this industry watched over that process and there still was a problem and I reprinted with a very large personel outlay of cash. With the replacement program in place which is the only way we could stay in some sort of business.

The paper finally used on the map was not what was specified in the order. There was a problem in the size of the map and the ability for the paper to the printer that was not communicated to me. I did not know of the thickness change until after I saw and and sent it out because most players do laminate or place under a plastic table. Every map I own is laminated. So I will be checking into what, if anything, I will do about that.

Pitman if you want to send your SS4 scenario sheets back I'll place a hole puched piece of paper in there for you, jeeze your a negitivity is such a joy.
For what it's worth - I think that the countersheet issue in RBF#4 was handled with class by HOB. I got a replacement sheet at minimal cost and in a very reasonable timeframe. These things happen from time to time, despite the best efforts of folks. The crux is how the company remedies the situation - and HOB did a grand job IMHO.

I don't give a monkeys bum if the map is thin. I play under Plex and store my HASL maps flat.
 

Jazz

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For what it's worth - I think that the countersheet issue in RBF#4 was handled with class by HOB. I got a replacement sheet at minimal cost and in a very reasonable timeframe. These things happen from time to time, despite the best efforts of folks. The crux is how the company remedies the situation - and HOB did a grand job IMHO.

I don't give a monkeys bum if the map is thin. I play under Plex and store my HASL maps flat.
Yeah, what he said.....my map will be laminated this week and will be stored flat and possibly transported rolled, depending.

I've played with the back printed captured AFV counters....<shrug>...not a big deal to me. I have the re-printed counters also.
 

Stevedeth

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Well thanks guys, I appriciate the support this is getting pretty close to being not worth the effort.
 

Peebs

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Well thanks guys, I appriciate the support this is getting pretty close to being not worth the effort.
Don't let a few complaints ruin everything. Just go kick your printers a$$ and move on with it. :D

FWIW, I put my maps under plexiglass as well. Still need to order Kreta though.
Mike
 

Loquitor

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I have been a big supporter of HOB since I came into the ASL scene. I have bought High Ground, RbF 1-4, HoB update, NFNH, OtO, SF, FF2 and BRV. The counters from RbF 4 were not a big deal.

I spent $60.00 on Kreta. Glossy counters are fine. Scenarios look great. No problem with the campaign game. Not a bad distribution between Geo Board scenarios and the included map. I like the look of the map, very interesting and the art work is great. I hate the material. When I first got it I unfolded the map and I have three areas like the picture attached. Each of these areas is where the map folds to a corner. I am not looking for another map as I feel the same thing will happen. The map is sitting on my dining room table where it will stay until I spend more money to have if laminated. I don't know if I dare to fold it.


Steve I am sorry if you feel it may not be worth it anymore, but I have every right to be disappointed.
 

Roadtogundagai

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Well thanks guys, I appriciate the support this is getting pretty close to being not worth the effort.
HOB are one of the best TPPs out there from what I have seen. High class products like OtO, BtB, HG. Excellent gear :thumup: :supper: :yummy:

I would hate to see HOB fade away.
 

fwheel73

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For $3 a square foot the local print shop will laminate the large maps for me. Cost me about $35 to get the VotG maps laminated.

Once they are laminated, there are no worries about damage to the map - not even from spilled drinks.

I haven't seen the map yet, but I'll bet that after it's laminated (which I do with all the HASL maps) I won't have a problem.
Sam,
Have you decided what type of laminate you will use? Our local print shop only has the glossy.... but our local "mapping supply company" as the non-glare variety... bit more expensive. Just wondering.
Best regards,:salute:
John
 

SamB

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My local shop only has the "semi gloss" type. So that's what I use.

IMO, many ASL players are a PITA. We demand an incredible amount from those that print these things. I didn't need the replacement counters - I would have played with them "backwards". (But of course, I accepted the replacement). And while I don't have my copy yet, the map paper is no big deal to me. I'll laminate it as soon as I get it.

The guys at HoB do a good job. The most difficult part of producing ASL is creating interesting, balanced scenarios and situations. HoB, MMP, Schwerepunkt, and others are good at this. Very good.

Cut them some slack. Jeeze.
 

Portal

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SamB,

So when are you going to cut Dave L and his associated Not to Be Named TPP the same level of slack? ;)

Sorry, guys, but if I spend $60 or so for an ASL product, I want it to be bang-on the type of product I look for (nice purchase-based CG, paratrooper scenarios with lots of Paradrops and/or Glider landings as true to the potential of the historical situation, nice durable components).

Having posted this, however, I want every ASL TPP to continue to do what they're doing. Even Schwerpunkt, too, even though I don't buy Evan's stuff. :)
 

wrongway149

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For what it's worth - I think that the countersheet issue in RBF#4 was handled with class by HOB. I got a replacement sheet at minimal cost and in a very reasonable timeframe. .

How does one get these 'replacement sheets'? (Didn't get my copy directly from HoB)
 

Roadtogundagai

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How does one get these 'replacement sheets'? (Didn't get my copy directly from HoB)
From the HOB website (and I think Gamers Armoury had them at one time).

$3 in USA if combined with another HOB purchase, $10 foreign. That seems very reasonable to me :)
 

jwb3

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When I first got it I unfolded the map and I have three areas like the picture attached. Each of these areas is where the map folds to a corner. I am not looking for another map as I feel the same thing will happen. The map is sitting on my dining room table where it will stay until I spend more money to have if laminated. I don't know if I dare to fold it.
Steve,

I certainly don't view this as any kind of "third strike and HOB is out" situation, but based on Loquitor's post and picture and your explanation, I do think this particular problem is worth some effort. Even using the logic that most people laminate or play under plexi, it looks like the maps will be damaged (significantly so, in my view) long before they can be laminated.

Personally, I figure this problem lowers my chances of buying it from "sitting on the fence" to "wouldn't even consider buying". But I'm hardly one of your bread-and-butter customers, so that's JMO.

It seems clear that this time around the problem was indisputably the printer's fault. I urge you to discuss it with them and see what satisfaction they are willing to offer.


John
 

SamB

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I like the look of the map, very interesting and the art work is great. I hate the material. When I first got it I unfolded the map and I have three areas like the picture attached. Each of these areas is where the map folds to a corner. I am not looking for another map as I feel the same thing will happen. The map is sitting on my dining room table where it will stay until I spend more money to have if laminated. I don't know if I dare to fold it.


Steve I am sorry if you feel it may not be worth it anymore, but I have every right to be disappointed.
I've had the same problem with a Red Barricade Map. I never considered it a flaw, just the nature of paper maps. That said, you have every right to talk to HoB about the problem and see what they decide to do to fix it.

The History with HoB is one of good products and good service. Anyone can have some issues with the printer. If you feel you've been burned, then you can certianly vote with your wallet.

I will leave unsaid my thoughts about CH or how HoB and CH compare.
 

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JWB,

I will be looking into what can be done, My issue was all the flying off the handle stating "I heard they will not fix it" kind of crap. Since this did not become an issue until Friday afternoon I did not have a chance to talk with the printer. I will be doing that today. If there is a solution we will work to it. If not then well see what happens.

Thanks for your support!
 

rdw5150

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IMO, many ASL players are a PITA. We demand an incredible amount from those that print these things. I didn't need the replacement counters - I would have played with them "backwards". (But of course, I accepted the replacement). And while I don't have my copy yet, the map paper is no big deal to me. I'll laminate it as soon as I get it.
Hi!

No we are purchasers of a product that expect it to be right. I guess I am out of the ordinary (in more ways than one:clown::smoke:), I draw very little distinction between a game company and any other company who I do business with (well except for the fact that I will help playtest and proof read for ASL).

If I spend $60 on something I expect it to be “right”. The backwards counters were not a huge deal to me. While I did not think the product was “broken”, I was disappointed. But the matter was solved in a timely manner and I think they did the right thing.

I thought the counter issue in the Special Forces was minor.

However if my map arrives and looks like “sample” posted earlier I am going to be pretty upset. While I do not like the glossy paper, I also play under plexi-glass so its no big deal. But the crinkles at the folders (in the picture) look pretty bad to me.

Once a company has my loyalty the pretty much keep it until they do something to loose it. I am more than willing to spend more money on a good quality product. But, for my money I do expect it right (or as close to right as it can be).

Being a map slut, a bad looking map is a product breaker for me.

I will still get this product as I have always been a supporter of HoB, but I do not think wanting a product “right” to be a PITA.

Peace

Roger
 
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regularjoe

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For What It's Worth

I just looked at the jpeg of the map that looks like it is coming apart at the seems.

Looks just like the maps in my CH! Total Axis Pack. Just saying that HOB is not the only company having that problem and if I am not mistaken Mr. Tapio prints his product in-house.

I am really looking forward to Kreta & this map issue is not going to deter me from ordering it; I'm just waiting for Noble Knight or Gamer's Armory to stock it.

I don't mean to pile on here on HOB but my experiences with ordering direct from HOB have been uniformly disappointing [again, I've seen lots of similar complaints about CH! over here and on Consim World so there's enough of that to go around]. HOB has always turned out a superior product in my opinion and if HOB works on improving anything, I think that it should be their turnaround on orders and responsiveness to customer inquiries.
 

Whizbang1963

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Re: For What It's Worth

I just looked at the jpeg of the map that looks like it is coming apart at the seems.

Looks just like the maps in my CH! Total Axis Pack. Just saying that HOB is not the only company having that problem and if I am not mistaken Mr. Tapio prints his product in-house.

I am really looking forward to Kreta & this map issue is not going to deter me from ordering it; I'm just waiting for Noble Knight or Gamer's Armory to stock it.

I don't mean to pile on here on HOB but my experiences with ordering direct from HOB have been uniformly disappointing [again, I've seen lots of similar complaints about CH! over here and on Consim World so there's enough of that to go around]. HOB has always turned out a superior product in my opinion and if HOB works on improving anything, I think that it should be their turnaround on orders and responsiveness to customer inquiries.
You can't compare the two companies..They are not in the same league..HOB is a superior company all the way around. I believe Steve totally. If it's possible to fix it, it will be done.
 

regularjoe

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No comparision intended, just an observation that the problems that may plague TPP are not unique and that some slack should be cut [all around].

I don't expect a paper map to last forever and like other people here are taking steps to preserve their lifespan.

Merely offered my two cents on a siginificant way that they could improve their customer service. We're all ASLers here, lets focus on how things can be made better for everyone - it's a win-win for all of us in the hobby.
 

L'Emperor

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The only issue I have ever had with HoB is the quality of some of the components as has been pointed out. I have never had problems with their customer service or the quality of the designs. The previous 'problem' with the counters was a) obviously not HoB's fault and b) fixed fast and fairly.

The opinions that any company should be judged equally I find a tad problomatic. Sure, I want everything to be perfect. On the other hand, holding a small endevour like HoB (which has no direct control over the printing and not enough clout to enforce it's wishes and, I am reasonably certain, a very small profit margin) to the same standards as a major corporation is not reasonable. Remember, AH had so much debt to their printers they were taken over by them. Sure, this worked out well for a long time but in the end the owners were printers, not gamers. I have tried using printers for some of my photos in the past and they never got it quite right. The eventual solution, buying a photo quality printer that uses stable inks, was expensive. Buying the equipment to do there own work by most ASL TPPs would be both beyond their means and their expertise.

I have yet to recieve Kreta so I will reserve judgement. I am anticipateing the map on toilet paper from the discussion here. I am certain that if anything can be done to rectify the situation, Steve will do it.
 

rdw5150

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The opinions that any company should be judged equally I find a tad problomatic. Sure, I want everything to be perfect. On the other hand, holding a small endevour like HoB (which has no direct control over the printing and not enough clout to enforce it's wishes and, I am reasonably certain, a very small profit margin) to the same standards as a major corporation is not reasonable.
Hi

I guess I see your point, (to a point:D), but I see what I think too many posts trying to give companies almost a free pass....

This is not just a HoB thing, but gaming in general.

There was a similar discussion on CSW in another company's folder (not an ASL company). A game came out with rules errata, counter errata and map errata..... there was one camp, the "its game, chill out" camp and the "hey I paid $95 for this and it should at least be close to being right" camp. I am not certain either one is 100% in the “right”.:cool:

Yes these are games, but its also our hard earned money (once again I am not talking HoB here, but the industry as a whole). I wish I could look at it like, “hey this is just a game, I’ll mark the counters so they are correct, download the map patches and the new rules, no problem”. I just cannot feel a little peeved that I had to do that.:OHNO:

Music is another of my big hobbies, if I got a CD that skipped, I would return it, if the case was broken or the liner note miss-printed, I would be agitated, but not return it (and probably still enjoy it in the long run).:cool:

Peace

Roger
 
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