Kreta

regularjoe

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I agree with a lot of the spirit of what is in the last post but I think that comparing a skipping cd to a paper map is not really apples to apples.

Tangentially, I, too, have bought more than my share of cds over 20 years and call me lucky, only 1 defective out of the jewel box.

Also, comparing an errata riddled product with a map that may be of a lesser quality paper is not really apples to apples, either. One is an isolated problem that should be easy to fix, the other sounds like a poorly designed and poorly proofread product that should not have shipped to customers in the first place.

What boggles me is that I have 20+ year old SPI games with paper maps that are not fraying like this but [don't have Kreta yet] my CH! Axis pack manifested this fairly quickly, and now I hear about this.
 

rdw5150

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"I agree with a lot of the spirit of what is in the last post but I think that comparing a skipping cd to a paper map is not really apples to apples."

Hi!

I had moved on to Gaming companies and games as a whole :smoke:

Though the bad jewel case or miss-printed liner notes may be a better metaphor for a "iffy" map....

I'll still enjoy Krete, even with its thin paper glossy map, just may be a little disappointed....... Will I stop buying their products, no, I will still buy future releases.

Let it be said that I have only bought one ASL product that I considered completely broken.......

Though I have bought a few war games I thought were completely broken and just not worth the effort....

Sorry as this whole discussion was OT, I was just pointing out that wanting something correct is not being a PITA:nuts::clown:

Peace

Roger
 

Gunner Scott

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Hi Rog-

Check out a printer near if you can, the printer I go too has a copy machine that can use 11 by 13 cardstock, so for me to print up the VotG map in large hexes will most likely cost 20 bucks. Basically a buck per a section.


Scott
 

RobZagnut

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Got my copy of Kreta this weekend after finding it stuffed and bent in my little mailbox.

FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!

1) I read thru the CG rules and I'm impressed by the look and feel that the map is going to give of the terrain. Excellent job HoB!!!

2) I like the linked scenarios idea and hope that this will catch on with other designers. I think that many HASLs are rejected due to the inability of one side or the other not being able to purchase units. Linked scenarios addresses this problem and it has the potential to become an industry standard for future HASLs.

I also like the CG scenario points and how the winner gets a base of 4 and the loser gets 2, but with a potential +1 or -1 for each side depending on CVP.

HoB was thinking outside the box on this one.

3) I like the great looking set of scenarios. I've always enjoyed getting a full set of scenarios that are designed for the specific mapsheet and then another set for geo boards. This was a great feature that gave us a huge set of scenarios in Onslaught to Orsha and has now carried over to Kreta.

4) Gorgeous map!!! Repetti does some fine work. It is going to be fun playing the different scenarios on the different parts of this map. Wow!

Overall, I have to put Kreta on the same level as OtO.

If you don't have a copy of OtO you better get one, because I think they're almost sold out and they're going to get expensive soon. I see the same thing happening with Kreta in a few years.

Time to read up on my Glider rules. Sweet!
 

Pitman

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I've had the same problem with a Red Barricade Map. I never considered it a flaw, just the nature of paper maps. That said, you have every right to talk to HoB about the problem and see what they decide to do to fix it.

The History with HoB is one of good products and good service. Anyone can have some issues with the printer. If you feel you've been burned, then you can certianly vote with your wallet.
Actually, the history of HOB is one of products that range from excellent (Onslaught to Orsha) to bad (Firefights), customer service that is often substandard (it is routine for people not even to be able to get in contact with HOB in the first place), and quality control that has grown increasingly problematic.

It is definitely true that "anyone can have some issues with the printer." However, not just anyone will pass on defective products received by their printer to the consumer. However, HOB does that, hoping that there will not be enough of an outcry to force them to reprint. The outcry was too much for the captured vehicle countersheet, but they were able to skate by on the SS reprint. It will be interesting to see how it comes out on this map issue.

The ironic thing is that, even if HOB has to eat the cost itself of reprinting a map, it is better to do that and release a game with a good map and a higher price than it is to release the game with a substandard component and have to reprint it and re-release that component later. In the former situation, the ASL community will be forgiving enough to put up with the higher price; in the latter situation, many people will justly be upset that the product they purchased had a component not up to snuff. You'd have thought HOB would have learned that lesson by now.


IMO, many ASL players are a PITA. We demand an incredible amount from those that print these things. I didn't need the replacement counters - I would have played with them "backwards". (But of course, I accepted the replacement). And while I don't have my copy yet, the map paper is no big deal to me. I'll laminate it as soon as I get it.

The guys at HoB do a good job. The most difficult part of producing ASL is creating interesting, balanced scenarios and situations. HoB, MMP, Schwerepunkt, and others are good at this. Very good.

Cut them some slack. Jeeze.
You may have been fine with the defective countersheet but plenty of other people were not. I don't think you should attempt to impose your own lax standards on those of others.

The map paper may be "no big deal" to you, but it is to me. It is so thin (thinner than the rules pages that came with the product) that I came very close to ripping it at a seam while trying to unfold it for the first time! It will not be able to take wear and tear, and I won't be able to travel with it. And making matters worse, it is a huge map that for some unaccountable reason was not cut into two mapsheets, which makes it all the heavier and more unwieldy. The delicate map paper means you can't fold the map to have just a portion of it in display, but the map unfolded is too large for most gaming tables. However, only one scenario uses the entire map, which creates a real usability/playability problem. Players will have to cut the map into two sections and laminate them, in all likelihood.

(note I am responding below to different person than above)

For what it's worth - I think that the countersheet issue in RBF#4 was handled with class by HOB. I got a replacement sheet at minimal cost and in a very reasonable timeframe. These things happen from time to time, despite the best efforts of folks. The crux is how the company remedies the situation - and HOB did a grand job IMHO.

I don't give a monkeys bum if the map is thin. I play under Plex and store my HASL maps flat.
I do NOT think that the RBF#4 countersheet was "handled with class." A classy way to handle it would be not to send out a defective countersheet in the first place! It is not as if they did not know it was defective when they sent it out and only later did someone discover it. They knowingly sent out a substandard component.

HOB did far from a "grand job." A good job would have been to have delayed the product's release until acceptable countersheets were available.

For a long, long time, Heat of Battle has been the teflon TPP. They have benefited for a very long time from being the "non-CH guys." People have been more than willing to cut them slack time after time, in circumstances in which they were not willing to cut other people slack.

Isn't it time that people tried to take an objective look at HOB's quality control? If HOB doesn't get that sort of feedback, they have no impetus to change.

Just look at this product. Parts of the scenario cards are, seemingly randomly, printed in a different colored ink. Every single scenario card has typos in it--every apostrophe, quotation mark, or other special character has been replaced by a WRONG special character. The word Maleme is misspelled on the packaging material itself! The front cover of the packaging material also contains a typo. When you are not even bothering to proofread the cover of your product, what does that say about quality control? It's not as if this is an aberration, either--the SS reprint was also not proofread at all, with the result that even scenario titles were misspelled (and that was a REPRINT).

I think that HOB deserves full credit for trying to do interesting products on diverse topics. When they do things right, the result is great. They have a lot of good products in their publishing record.

However, in the past few years, HOB has been falling behind on two key issues:

1) Quality control. HOB does not do adequate proofreading and editing of its own products. And when printers screw up, HOB prefers to release products with screwed up components rather than wait and get suitable components instead. This just plain needs to change. It is better to release product at a delayed time and with a higher price than to release it with a defective component in the first place. It is not as if ASLers are not unused to either waiting or high prices.

2) Customer Service. HOB needs to be more responsive on customer service. I am tired of the frustrated people on Consimworld, for example, who can't even get hold of HOB to get them to deal with a customer service issue because HOB doesn't even have a working e-mail address! Steve Dethlefsen needs to step up to the plate and commit himself to improve on the communications issue.

I say this not to bash HOB, but in an effort to be constructive and to see some improvement in the future. HOB's teflon can't last forever; it took a big hit with the RbF countersheet and is likely to take another hit with the Crete map. I know it is not easy to be a TPP like HOB, which is a tiny operation with the ambition to do high quality maps, counters, and other components. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong, but HOB is too small to have tons of leverage with printers. But there are right ways and wrong ways to handle situations like that, and HOB hasn't always chosen the best way (sometimes they have done it right, I need to point out, as with Beyond the Beachhead and its printing issues). And there are some things, such as proofreading and editing, which are entirely within their control--"Samurai" should never be misspelled again.

I am above everything else an ASL consumer, and I want justifiably to be able to salivate over announcements about forthcoming HOB products, rather than to be anxious that there might be something wrong with the release.
 

Roadtogundagai

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... It is so thin (thinner than the rules pages that came with the product) that I came very close to ripping it at a seam while trying to unfold it for the first time! It will not be able to take wear and tear, and I won't be able to travel with it. And making matters worse, it is a huge map that for some unaccountable reason was not cut into two mapsheets, which makes it all the heavier and more unwieldy. The delicate map paper means you can't fold the map to have just a portion of it in display, but the map unfolded is too large for most gaming tables. However, only one scenario uses the entire map, which creates a real usability/playability problem. Players will have to cut the map into two sections and laminate them, in all likelihood.
Good points, Mark.

I think that I (and maybe others) perhaps cut HOB more slack due to past excellence. OtO, BtB and HG are right up there with anything from MMP or anyone else.
 

rdw5150

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Good points, Mark.

I think that I (and maybe others) perhaps cut HOB more slack due to past excellence. OtO, BtB and HG are right up there with anything from MMP or anyone else.
Agreed they get cut too much slack at times

Also agreed that the three products you mentioned were three stellar products!

Peace

Roger
 

Pitman

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Thanks, TJ. Had no trouble getting a pre-release version from the publisher :)

Just like VotG, though, I didn't do the original map, I just colored it for hardcopy and VASL. I don't know who their original artist was, and maybe I'm biased cuz I spent so much time with the thing, but DANG is this a pretty map. There's a lot going on, and just about every inch of it has character.

Tom
The map itself is a nice design. The only thing I don't like are the small hex numbers. Other than that, it's a very nice looking map.
 

william.stoppel

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Mark,
I don't often agree with you but your post was spot on and eloquently phrased. HoB has had some excellent products but also some quality issues that deserve to be addressed.

Bill
 

MLaPanzer

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I also agree with Marks remarks.

OtO which I do not own:cry: is an excellent product which i have seen and played. I have noticed that with Firefights and the SS product you better have the Errata handy. There are some majors mistakes in them.

As for the maps I don't think I should have to pay an additional 30 or more dollars to be able to use a Map.

I worked as a printer for 15 years mistakes like using the wrong ink or paper or die-cutting the wrongside are mistakes the printer WILL fix at no cost or in many instances offer a discount to the customer to accept the product. If they won't you should find a better printer.
Now if the customer decides to accept the product and distributes it. That is THAT companies decision. That decision to accept and distribute an inferior product is wholey with that customer and NOT the printers fault. It looks to me like in both instances that HOB accepted an inferior product either because they didn't want the delay or they didn't inspect the product from the printer. I do not pretend to know why they did it.

I was looking forward to this product but at this time I think i will wait and see what happens with the maps.

As an aside to this why don't HOB, MMP and others offer up Non-folded maps for sale. That would aleviate the problem of folding which causes problems with any paper product. It wouldn't cost that much more to ship them. That is something I would be interested in. How about others?
 

Portal

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Would anyone be able to confirm a professional source for a new copy of OtO? I thought it was OOP already.
 

BobO

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Mark,
I don't often agree with you but your post was spot on and eloquently phrased. HoB has had some excellent products but also some quality issues that deserve to be addressed.

Bill

THUD!


<then BobO picks himself off the floor>
 

rdw5150

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"What did you find 'bad' about the Firefights? (probably going to regret asking)"

I found most of them unbalanced...... fun to play each side once during an evening session though......

Peace

Roger
 

Sarjent Mike

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"What did you find 'bad' about the Firefights? (probably going to regret asking)"

I found most of them unbalanced...... fun to play each side once during an evening session though......

Peace

Roger
We had a few unbalanced actions as well, but I agree with Roger, they are a lot of fun and nice for a short evening's gaming session.
 

Khill

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I like Kreta. Problems sure, but overall I'm into it. I don't care for the glossy counters but I thinking the most used will be the partially armed paras and the gliders. After finding their canisters and re-arm they convert to regular counters anyway. I really like the nation specific gliders, glossy or no. The map is a weakness in the qulity of the paper and the seemingly smaller hex size but art is great looking. The typos are really annoying but most seem to be just that, annoying and mostly on the scenarios. I cutout and clipped the counters, read over the rules and scenarios and thus I am looking forward to playing some of the scenarios, Love airborne actions, need more of them. Not exactly the standard of OtO but a nice product. Thankx HOB:)
 
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Actually, the history of HOB is one of products that range from excellent (Onslaught to Orsha) to bad (Firefights), customer service that is often substandard (it is routine for people not even to be able to get in contact with HOB in the first place), and quality control that has grown increasingly problematic.

It is definitely true that "anyone can have some issues with the printer." However, not just anyone will pass on defective products received by their printer to the consumer. However, HOB does that, hoping that there will not be enough of an outcry to force them to reprint. The outcry was too much for the captured vehicle countersheet, but they were able to skate by on the SS reprint. It will be interesting to see how it comes out on this map issue.

The ironic thing is that, even if HOB has to eat the cost itself of reprinting a map, it is better to do that and release a game with a good map and a higher price than it is to release the game with a substandard component and have to reprint it and re-release that component later. In the former situation, the ASL community will be forgiving enough to put up with the higher price; in the latter situation, many people will justly be upset that the product they purchased had a component not up to snuff. You'd have thought HOB would have learned that lesson by now.

The map paper may be "no big deal" to you, but it is to me. It is so thin (thinner than the rules pages that came with the product) that I came very close to ripping it at a seam while trying to unfold it for the first time! It will not be able to take wear and tear, and I won't be able to travel with it. And making matters worse, it is a huge map that for some unaccountable reason was not cut into two mapsheets, which makes it all the heavier and more unwieldy. The delicate map paper means you can't fold the map to have just a portion of it in display, but the map unfolded is too large for most gaming tables. However, only one scenario uses the entire map, which creates a real usability/playability problem. Players will have to cut the map into two sections and laminate them, in all likelihood.


I do NOT think that the RBF#4 countersheet was "handled with class." A classy way to handle it would be not to send out a defective countersheet in the first place! It is not as if they did not know it was defective when they sent it out and only later did someone discover it. They knowingly sent out a substandard component.

HOB did far from a "grand job." A good job would have been to have delayed the product's release until acceptable countersheets were available.

For a long, long time, Heat of Battle has been the teflon TPP. They have benefited for a very long time from being the "non-CH guys." People have been more than willing to cut them slack time after time, in circumstances in which they were not willing to cut other people slack.

Isn't it time that people tried to take an objective look at HOB's quality control? If HOB doesn't get that sort of feedback, they have no impetus to change.

Just look at this product. Parts of the scenario cards are, seemingly randomly, printed in a different colored ink. Every single scenario card has typos in it--every apostrophe, quotation mark, or other special character has been replaced by a WRONG special character. The word Maleme is misspelled on the packaging material itself! The front cover of the packaging material also contains a typo. When you are not even bothering to proofread the cover of your product, what does that say about quality control? It's not as if this is an aberration, either--the SS reprint was also not proofread at all, with the result that even scenario titles were misspelled (and that was a REPRINT).

I think that HOB deserves full credit for trying to do interesting products on diverse topics. When they do things right, the result is great. They have a lot of good products in their publishing record.

However, in the past few years, HOB has been falling behind on two key issues:

1) Quality control. HOB does not do adequate proofreading and editing of its own products. And when printers screw up, HOB prefers to release products with screwed up components rather than wait and get suitable components instead. This just plain needs to change. It is better to release product at a delayed time and with a higher price than to release it with a defective component in the first place. It is not as if ASLers are not unused to either waiting or high prices.

2) Customer Service. HOB needs to be more responsive on customer service. I am tired of the frustrated people on Consimworld, for example, who can't even get hold of HOB to get them to deal with a customer service issue because HOB doesn't even have a working e-mail address! Steve Dethlefsen needs to step up to the plate and commit himself to improve on the communications issue.

I say this not to bash HOB, but in an effort to be constructive and to see some improvement in the future. HOB's teflon can't last forever; it took a big hit with the RbF countersheet and is likely to take another hit with the Crete map. I know it is not easy to be a TPP like HOB, which is a tiny operation with the ambition to do high quality maps, counters, and other components. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong, but HOB is too small to have tons of leverage with printers. But there are right ways and wrong ways to handle situations like that, and HOB hasn't always chosen the best way (sometimes they have done it right, I need to point out, as with Beyond the Beachhead and its printing issues). And there are some things, such as proofreading and editing, which are entirely within their control--"Samurai" should never be misspelled again.
Mark, I don't always agree with you, but in this instance I have to go along with most of your comments here. I remember when CH was the primary TPP and so many people bought everything they "produced". I too started that way, but when time-after-time I received significantly inferior products (with little or no attempt by CH to both address issues and to continue to make the same mistakes), I learned to pass on their offerings. Nowadays I don't even bother to look at CH's products, much less consider purchasing them. Anyway, after seeing repeated releases from HoB with product quality problems, and having also experienced on occasion the issues with inability to contact them, I am getting closer to putting HoB in the same category with CH. I am eagerly awaiting my copy of Kreta to see if it is good enough to hold my loyalty a while longer.
 

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No promises but we are looking into map and seeing what the Sub-contractor will do for us.

Just a not from this discussion.

RE: Recon 4 counters. When we looked at the counters we had 5 copies cut for approval (of both Recon 4 and the countersheets that included Kreta-SF1 and SF2) All of them where fine. At that point it was out of our control. The counters where then cut on the wrong side. From that point the counters were packaged and sent out. We did not find out about the back printing until they were in customers hands. There was never a decision to purposly send out the counters. The map was a similar situation the proofs I got where fine. Same with the two apostropies, We have no clue how that got there, just call it a Cretian symbol.

There are two issues with this business model in that it is very small scale and reletivaly expensive to print stuff up and the nature of the fact that things have to be farmed out all over the country, and we can't watch every step like we could in the past.

Thanks
 

Khill

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The new, re-print, of RbF4 counters are so totally awesome.
 
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