Is there Something wrong with Journal 12 and WO Bonus Pack 8?
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GeorgeBates
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von Marwitz
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At least there seems to be a Comet tank in a museum in Hong Kong.
http://worldoftanks.asia/en/news/29/comet-hongkong-coastal-defence-museum/
von Marwitz
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Well remembered! Here we are: 18 front hull, 14 front turret, 8 side and rear. 83LL MA!!! Heaven knows what TK# that would be? Same as a 88LL probably.
Justiciar
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Errr, no. It is nearly the answer to everything (you have to channel your inner Hitchhiker's Guide). 41
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I believe that should be 42.
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Seriously? A 41 TK# is bloody powerful. How come it is so much more effective than a 88LL?
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Because the British designers were so much smarter than those overevaluated Germans.
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ThePrimeMover
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Paul,
Many thanks but Wikipedia is not a good source. Also 88 kills pales in comparison to German Aces who would probably assign a pilot with that disrespectfully diminutive number as the tea boy and sometime bootcleaner
I agree that Wiki is far from a perfect source but on WW2 type stuff it's not too bad. I have found a few errors myself, but so far nothing that would change a Wiki's article too much. Eg a PzBfWg III E (command variant) labelled as being turret armed with a 37mm gun and 2 MG when the armament only was 1 MG or a suggestion that Comet tanks were used in Korea (possible, but I'm very doubtful). To be honest, I have found Wiki to be less error prone than a fair few of my older WW2 books, that I paid good money for. It's simply that so much new information has come out from under veils of secrecy since then, eg the whole Ultra operation and Soviet archives as well as the increasing ability of researchers to travel and examine the records or the kit themselves.
As for aircraft kills ... <loud guffaws>, that's a whole new, actually rather old, ball park. Calling kill claims that were accepted as complete fiction would be going too far, but such numbers need a side serving of a bucket of salt. Increasing use of gun cameras did make things better, but still far from accurate. The Soviets had a policy of only confirming kills when either they found the wreck or their ground forces or other aircraft confirmed the crash. The Germans on the EF tended to do the same and efforts were done by all to achieve the same checking. Aircraft can be hit by multiple aircraft, AA or plain pilot error. The most egregious cases were bomber defensive guns where every enemy fighter that emitted smoke would be a claim from the dozens of guns that were fired at it. The best way is to compare kill claims on one side with reported losses on the other side and even that is limited. An aircraft badly damaged in air to air could be written off (by crash landing or being beyond economical repair) on return or fall victim to AA or other aircraft as it returns home. With the Soviets at least, a victory could be assigned to a pilot lost in that combat so his/her relatives could get a boost in his/her "pension". All sides could have many cases where the leader does most of the work and hands over the coup de grâse to his wingman to give practice, confidence and otherwise earned credit. Kill stealing also happened.
I could go on and on about kill claims, but general magnitudes should be not too far off. The air war on the EF was close while almost everywhere else it was remote. NA at times being the exception. Lots of aircraft that would not have otherwise been put in harms way were used and shot down in good numbers. By the time of Tunisia the Western Allies had air superiority over the battlefield and utter air supremacy by Normandy. On the EF the Germans had superiority until mid-'42, contested control for another year and thereafter the Soviets had at least superiority and by late '44 had practically supremacy.
As for individual's numbers, the Germans were in the war for nearly 6 years as well as the SCW, had initially lower numbers of higher trained pilots and got a good chunk of their high kills on the EF where they were facing under trained and inexperienced pilots still flying early '30s designs. The long front played against concentration of force so the air situation was more chaotic with fleeting opportunities for the experienced. It was a target rich environment. What is a more useful comparison is between Western and Soviet kill numbers. While I have not studied the air war as much (the best AA weapon is your tank on the enemy's airfield), I'm quite sure the top 3 anti-Axis pilots were Soviet, possibly more and that's from what little I read in books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces lists 10 Soviet pilots, not to speak of 6 Finns, 4 Romanians and a Croat above any Western pilot. A cynic might note that having the Germans produce fewer planes meant that there were fewer to shoot down
.
APDS?
My tank knowledge trails off post-WW2, simply because though I have an interest in all AFV, there was only so much I could absorb, so concentrated on that period. In addition a lot of post-war vehicles' information was secret, restricted or simply hard to find. One of my vague areas was Western post war ammo loadouts.
I know the British 20lbr had a similar range of shells as the 17lbr, but having a type available is not the same as having it issued.
The problem with WW2 APDS was the separation of the sabot from the core, resulting in poor accuracy at range. US APCR was regarded as more accurate than British APDS, despite the limitations of such light but full calibre shells. However post-war the British seemed to have fixed that and the 20lbr firing APDS was regarded as very accurate for it's day. So there was less need for firing simple AP (APCBC) ammo at longer range. In addition the 2 types of AP, APCBC and APDS had different ballistic characteristics due to their different velocities (1020 ft/s vs 1465 ft/s) and cross sectional densities. The 20lbr could also fire smoke, HE and canister. While canister was a short range 'point and shoot' you still have HE (1975 ft/s), smoke (825 ft/s), APDS and APCBC each with it's own ballistic pattern to train your troops on. So if the accuracy problems with APDS have been resolved why not drop the inferior penetrating APCBC?
So while I cannot definitely say that the weaker APCBC was not issued for Korea, it would not surprise me in the least. I would rate the 20lbr APCBC as roughly the same as the German 8.8cm L/71, but APDS is an entirely different kettle of fish.
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ThePrimeMover
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I could go on and on and on and on...lol! Hey Paul you make some compelling points here and are obviously well read but we need some chapter headings here! Lol! Yes, agree that some Wiki is ok and about confirmed kills vs inexperienced tgts et all but the book I tried to read about a Russian pilot was all distorted by too much patriotism (and vodka no doubt) whereas I've always found the Germans are much more honest and retrospect. I'm not sure why but Germans seem like good guys in western world and Russians as the baddies (Star Trek? Klingons -
Cold War analogy??) but bottom line Hans Ruddel is the top man period (Nazi? It's possible...) Adolf Garland (I think) another and there are many more - there are no equivalents to these giants (Ruddel only man to get Germany's highest reward - about a 1000 times harder to get than the VC or Purple Heart - not inflammatory, just the facts).
Anyways sorry for the micro thread highjack
- nothing like starting where you finished last
Cold War analogy??) but bottom line Hans Ruddel is the top man period (Nazi? It's possible...) Adolf Garland (I think) another and there are many more - there are no equivalents to these giants (Ruddel only man to get Germany's highest reward - about a 1000 times harder to get than the VC or Purple Heart - not inflammatory, just the facts).
Anyways sorry for the micro thread highjack
- nothing like starting where you finished last
Don't worry about the thread diversion. At worst it's still WW2 related and has not degenerated into a silly row, which happens from time to time here. My first few years here was mainly lurking with the odd question. Eventually I started to add bits of related trivia and sufficient liked that to encourage me to rabbit on a bit more. So if you feel you have something WW2-ish to add then blaze away.
The Soviet era stuff should be taken with a good dash of salt, too many failures under reported and often the wrong people given credit for successes. However the German stuff should also be examined with a very critical eye as well. The advent of the Cold War meant that too many self serving stories from ex Wehrmacht people got accepted at face value as "they are sons of bitches, but their our sons of bitches". Post Soviet era Russian stuff seems to be a vast improvement and the opening of archives has given Westerners a better picture and has improved the West's view of Soviet efforts. Many myths have died in the last twenty odd years.
The Soviet era stuff should be taken with a good dash of salt, too many failures under reported and often the wrong people given credit for successes. However the German stuff should also be examined with a very critical eye as well. The advent of the Cold War meant that too many self serving stories from ex Wehrmacht people got accepted at face value as "they are sons of bitches, but their our sons of bitches". Post Soviet era Russian stuff seems to be a vast improvement and the opening of archives has given Westerners a better picture and has improved the West's view of Soviet efforts. Many myths have died in the last twenty odd years.
Nineteen Kilo
Senior Member
In answer to the title of the thread, "Yes".
I was slightly disappointed to see the tired old scenarios Gavin Taken and The T-Patchers included in the scenario mix. I know, I know, not everybody was around in the days of old when the General was released, however the back issues of the General are available on line. *Kev begins to seek cover for daring to cast aspersions on an ASL product*
I was slightly disappointed to see the tired old scenarios Gavin Taken and The T-Patchers included in the scenario mix. I know, I know, not everybody was around in the days of old when the General was released, however the back issues of the General are available on line. *Kev begins to seek cover for daring to cast aspersions on an ASL product*
jrv
Forum Guru
The scenarios were not included in the product, per se. They were misprinted somehow in Yanks2 (I don't know how). The card in ASL Journal 12 is a replacement page, in addition to the twelve scenarios that are really part of the Journal. It's unfortunate that you think you were being ripped off when in fact someone is trying to do a favor for you if you bought Yanks2. Perhaps it is the times we live in. Anyway, it's printed on the loose list of contents included in the Journal.
JR
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Nineteen Kilo
Senior Member
KevinR
Member
View attachment 1003
Looking at the shadow of the barrel, I'd say the sun is at least 30 degrees off of vertical, and maybe as much as 40 degrees. (Ballpark the shadow as 4 feet off-center and 6 feet below the barrel, for 33 degrees.)
At zenith on the solstice, the angle off vertical is also the difference in latitude from the relevant tropic. So, an angle that steep could be seen at some time each year anywhere between about 10 and 60 degrees latitude.
For Korea around 38 north, the sun would be correctly positioned at mid-day in April and August, or at 11am and 1pm in June.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
But maybe some green artillery personnel have erroneously mixed up ammo and fired an illumination round which now creates a shadow which would be impossible to be created by the sun?
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
GeorgeBates
Elder Member
We could do more forensics on the photo, but were I a betting man, given all that I see my money would be on a location much closer to the equator. Perhaps some day we'll find more conclusive evidence.