GLORY & GRIEF ASL Vietnam Variant? Anyone see this on eBay?

Rgirish

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I saw this today as well. It's the first I have heard of it. Not sure whether I have time to add another "module" to my collection though.
 

King Billy

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Looks interesting. Lots of 10 morale US leaders though. It looks like CH! layout. Anyone know if CH has a plan to release it?
 

sswann

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Looks interesting. Lots of 10 morale US leaders though. It looks like CH! layout. Anyone know if CH has a plan to release it?
Somewhat agree. Seems to have some VERY HIGH morale for the leaders and FP for the troops. Does it come with a new IFT for the higher FP?
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's not part of the "Modern ASL" group's work under Frank, though - looks like an independent work. Not a surprise, of course, I'm sure that goes on all the time. Does look interesting. I've been part of the MASL group for awhile and even wrote a Vietnam scenario - and playtested it, albeit a couple years ago now. The MASL stuff is an interesting compare and contrast to what is shown here, but I won't say more than that since it's all still being worked on.

If anyone picks this up, I hope they'll share their thoughts on it with us.

Incidentally, I am obviously in the camp that if any historical period saw fighting between groups of men divided into what we know as "squads", then ASL can reasonably be used to recreate that fighting. The last two years of the First World War, Vietnam, even Iraq all fall into that category - the technology is just window dressing to the tactics of the men. Recreating how the technology is a matter of how complicated do you want the layers of rules - ASL players have shown they have no great resistance to complicated rules, so there is really nothing stopping anyone from recreating any time period.
 
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sswann

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TRue, the Falklands War was fitted into MASL using the existing ASL rules very easily. Only the helicopters required a rewrite for use.
 

2 Bit Bill

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Wild Bill Wilder used to do stuff for OAF. I think he was the man behind OAF's attempt to produce the Japanese. AH told them to quit or prepare for legal action.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Wild Bill Wilder used to do stuff for OAF. I think he was the man behind OAF's attempt to produce the Japanese. AH told them to quit or prepare for legal action.
I saw WBW's article on the Japanese printed in another source, also - The Wargamer, I think (Volume I).
 

Loquitor

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Did everyone see this?

This is the first of three Vietnam and one Korean War modules that we are planning to produce. The first module contains four scenarios and centers around Air-Cavalry units. More rules and new features come with Modules 2 and 3. They include the US Marines, the Viet Cong, the ANZAC and ARVN forces, plus new armor, tunnels, a full complement of armor, riverine forces, transport helicopters and many other new features.


This “Vietnam Variant” is brought to you through the combined efforts of Wild Bill Wilder and First to Fight Variants. This is NOT a complete game. Ownership or access to ASL “YANKS” is necessary to play this module. The module is stored in a zip-locked plastic bag. The units are stored in individual zip-locked plastic bags according to size and/or nationality
 

Michael Dorosh

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COI carryover perhaps?
Looks very chrome-heavy with point man and RTO counters too. It's may be why it's being self-published, but I don't want to throw cold-water on it without having seen it. I'm impressed by the physical quality of the counters, but books shouldn't be judged by their covers. The price is a gamble on an untested product, but I think the use of WBW's name mitigates the risk as far as the quality of the scenarios at least.

The Japanese rules were interesting - naturally way different than what MMP put out; I'll have to pull them off the shelf and see if they were as chrome-y as these appear to be based on the counters alone - might give a clue as to how the Vietnam rules are developed.
 

jwb3

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The price is a gamble on an untested product, but I think the use of WBW's name mitigates the risk as far as the quality of the scenarios at least.
You do? Huh. I've never encountered his name in the world of SL/ASL before (30 years ago I wasn't even reading The General yet), but in the realm of CMBO I always thought his scenarios were vastly overrated. Of course, we might have such totally different concepts of what we mean by "quality" that a comparison is meaningless...

I was also concerned by the statement,
The suggestions for play and the descriptions of the units and their special characteristics are not iron clad. I am not a rules "guru."
I certainly don't expect every scenario designer to be a rules guru, but I'd like to think that people who publish rules and charge some money for them at least think that they've done them right...


John
 
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Michael Dorosh

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You do? Huh. I've never encountered his name in the world of SL/ASL before (30 years ago I wasn't even reading The General yet), but in the realm of CMBO I always thought his scenarios were vastly overrated. Of course, we might have such totally different concepts of what we mean by "quality" that a comparison is meaningless...

I was also concerned by the statement,

I certainly don't expect every scenario designer to be a rules guru, but I'd like to think that people who publish rules and charge some money for them at least think that they've done them right...

John
To be honest, I never played his scenarios, with the exception of a Saving Private Ryan scenario he did based on the Ramelle fight, and only because I had done one too. His was a huge company level thingie that was mostly fantasy. I did a kitchen-sink translation as close to the movie as I could. His got rave reviews at the time, and I could sort of see why - it was fun - but only loosely inspired by the movie and bore no real resemblance to what was on the screen.

I just assumed that given the amount of times I've seen his name (Wild Bill and the Raiders) splashed over cyberspace, his name was golden. :D

Thanks for the unvarnished opinion.

I don't think a scenario designer (be he good or bad) necessarily makes a good rules designer. Like I said - his Japanese rules were "interesting". I should really dig them out and give an impression of them here.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Okay - The Wargamer Issue Number 30 has his article called BLOOD AND SAND: PACIFIC VARIANT RULES in it. The contents are:

1. The Japanese
2. Starshells
3. Air Support - Napalm
4. Caves
5. Special Invasion Rules
6. Tunnels
7. Dogs
8. Special Infiltration Rules
9. Weather - Climate
10. Booby Traps
11. Dated Japanese Play
12. Miscellaneous

I'm obviously not going to just scan these and post them since they're still his property, but it may interest readers to know that what ASL did in an entire chapter, Wild Bill did in two full pages of a magazine and about half a column on a third page! And even threw in the war dogs.

Not very chrome-y at all. Tunnels are a modification of existing GI rule 161.61, for example. There is actually more ink devoted to depicting dogs than to Japanese infantry.

EDIT to add - none of which should be construed as passing judgement. As the first guy to give it a try and get something in print - good for him. Looks like he hit on the major stuff that needed to be hit, and if the rules are brief, they are really just modifications of the existing SL-GI rules, as opposed to ASL which was creating from whole cloth. No idea how the rules played. If he had fun with them, I reckon that's what counts. Will be interested to see if anyone here picks up these Vietnam rules and shares their thoughts with us, too.
 
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jwb3

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To be honest, I never played his scenarios... His was a huge company level thingie that was mostly fantasy. ... His got rave reviews at the time, and I could sort of see why - it was fun - but only loosely inspired by the movie and bore no real resemblance to what was on the screen.

I just assumed that given the amount of times I've seen his name (Wild Bill and the Raiders) splashed over cyberspace, his name was golden. :D
Oh, his name was golden, all right -- just like Rune's... and IIRC I have a general idea what you think of his golden aura. :devious:

Both of them had the same sort of cult-like following. :hail::hail:
That's always a turn-off for me.

What you said about the SPR design pretty much sums up all WBW's designs, from my POV -- mostly fantasy, rave reviews, fun, loosely inspired. I wasn't impressed, but then, I wasn't really the target audience.


John
 

jwb3

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Okay - The Wargamer Issue Number 30 has his article called BLOOD AND SAND: PACIFIC VARIANT RULES in it. The contents are:

11. Dated Japanese Play

I'm obviously not going to just scan these and post them since they're still his property, but it may interest readers to know that what ASL did in an entire chapter, Wild Bill did in two full pages of a magazine and about half a column on a third page!
Interesting. What the heck was "Dated Japanese Play" about?


John
 
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