Best Rifle of WWII?

Kevin Kenneally

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What nation had the best rifle during WWII?

I would say the US with the M1 Garand.


What are other choices you like?

Thanks in advance for participating in the discussion.
 

Dave68124

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What nation had the best rifle during WWII?

I would say the US with the M1 Garand.


What are other choices you like?

Thanks in advance for participating in the discussion.
Obviously, I think it depends upon the use and purpose. As an assault rifle, the M1 wouldn't make the list. Probably one of the most revolutionary individual weapons created was the Stg 44. A grandfather to some very reliable and effective weapons that was developed post-WW 2.
 

BitterPill

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Obviously, I think it depends upon the use and purpose. As an assault rifle, the M1 wouldn't make the list. Probably one of the most revolutionary individual weapons created was the Stg 44. A grandfather to some very reliable and effective weapons that was developed post-WW 2.
That BAR had a good run, saw action in four wars. A bit heavy though.
 

Kevin Kenneally

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That BAR had a good run, saw action in four wars. A bit heavy though.

BAR was also used in the hunt for Pancho Villa, WWI, Spainish Civil War, WWII, Korea, French used it in SE Asia against the Vietminh, and many other small "local disputes".

BAR is a good weapon, but I didn't think of that when I started this thread.

What rifle (used by the basic infantry soldier) is the Best in the poster's opinion.
 

Paul M. Weir

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There are really only 3 classes of rifles.

1) Assault rifles (Automatic capable with intermediate round). Only one contender here, the German StG 44.
1a) Full power automatic rifles. US BAR and German FG42. Both too light to really be controllable in full automatic fire.

2) Semi-Automatic. Again only one really mass contender, the US M1 Garand (6,250,000), though quite reasonable numbers of both the German G43/K43 (400,000) and Soviet SVT-38/40 (1,600,000) Not all that much between them.

3) Bolt action rifles. The top 3 were the Lee-Enfield, the Mauser family (including the US M1903) and the Mosin-Nagant. The Enfield had a slight edge in rate of fire and both the the Mausers and Mosin-Nagant a slight edge in accuracy. The Soviets did prefer their own rifles over German Mausers and I think there was a bit more than pride there. With the exception of the Italians most nations rifles were pretty much on par with each other. Within each series you often have length variations (carbine vs 'rifle' size) and other detail differences. I would say that the differences between different nations rifles would be out ranged by the differences within a rifle family and within a single model that is fairly new and one that well worn and battered.

For most WW2, normal combat (1) is the clear winner, provided it is supplemented by a small number of scoped (2) or (3).

The Japanese had a problem in that their rifles were just a little big for most of their population, though good in themselves. The Italians seem to have got the shi ... short end of the stick, like with so many of their weapons.

What would have been a nice combination would have been a fully automatic capable rifle using the Japanese 6.5x50 mm Ariska round like the WW1 era Fedorov Avtomat. With a much reduced recoil it was suitable for an assault rifle, yet would have better reach than either of the shortened 7.92/7.62 mm rounds or the '60s 5.56/5.45 mm rounds. It seems there is renewed debate on the adoption of yet another intermediate round due to lessons from Afghanistan.
 

BitterPill

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BAR was also used in the hunt for Pancho Villa, WWI, Spainish Civil War, WWII, Korea, French used it in SE Asia against the Vietminh, and many other small "local disputes".

BAR is a good weapon, but I didn't think of that when I started this thread.

What rifle (used by the basic infantry soldier) is the Best in the poster's opinion.
The M1.
 

Hovned31

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The M1. The Stg44 is a great weapon but it wasn't available in the numbers that the M1 was.
 

witchbottles

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gonna be different:

03-A3 Springfield.

Same round as a M1, available much longer both before and after the war; used in more capacity for a longer service life; on a flat even par with the ubiquitous Kar - 98K and better than any other bolt rifle at the time, fought through 2 world wars, as well as many minor wars in between.


KRL, Jon H

PS my second is the Mauser. Owned one, factory made, never regretted that purchase. Best damn rifle I ever personally owned. WAY better than my old Krag I had, as well as my old Arisaka.
Can't find enough spare cash nowadays or then to buy a nice '03-A3 or '03 - A4.
 

prymus

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Own and fired '03 Springfield,M1 Garand and Carbine(a little light on punch), Mauser 98Kar, Arisaka sniper, Lee Enfield, and the Kraig. Most fun to shoot is the M1 without a doubt, awesome weapon. I notice very little difference between the bolt action rifles as far as accuracy, but would pick the Mauser(many have been converted to sport shooting/hunting weapons) every time. I think the Garand would be my pick for the best infantry weapon of the war, of those I have personally used anyway.
 

witchbottles

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Own and fired '03 Springfield,M1 Garand and Carbine(a little light on punch), Mauser 98Kar, Arisaka sniper, Lee Enfield, and the Kraig. Most fun to shoot is the M1 without a doubt, awesome weapon. I notice very little difference between the bolt action rifles as far as accuracy, but would pick the Mauser(many have been converted to sport shooting/hunting weapons) every time. I think the Garand would be my pick for the best infantry weapon of the war, of those I have personally used anyway.
Those of us who live on the Left coast are banned since 1999 from owning a M1 Carbine without a class 01 FFL. This weapon certainly had some nice potential in WW2, and good usage. the .30 Carbine Round being ballistically every bit as good as a 30-30. Not owned one. Have owned previous to the house fire a 30-40 Krag, this was a nice accurate rifle, but the need to manually load each of the 4 rounds into the non removable mag means a low ROF. The 30-06 is a more versatile round than a 8x 57mm; simply due to its longevity and widespread maufacture, from the 84 gr Spitzer to a 240 gr Norma. The 8 x57 lacks that versatility. The Mauser I had was war manufacture, 1940 came in burlap and a black gunk of packing grease/ black slick moldy straw; and the somewhat recognizable remains of a storage crate. It had been sold to Sweden in 1941 by the accompanying documentation. Apparently spent several decades in storage after that sale. I spent 9 months returning it to a shooter; and enjoyed the 8 x 57 ballistics, I believe at 300 yards, the BC is better on the 8x57 overall when compared to a .30 -06 military ball round; as is the bullet drop tables at that range, making it an effective weapon for taking furbearing game with the 147 gr Nosler Partition Tip. The Arisaka round was effective and fairly accurate out to 200 yds, my copy was an early type with a bleached birch wood stock, chrysanthemum, and a small chip from the stock separated just forward of the action on the right, approx the size of the width of a 5/8" ASL counter. ( this made my copy affordable). It was in 80% + NRA condition overall, with some wear. Provenance said a Nationalist Chinese battlefield pickup from 1945, sold to Greece, then sold from Greek National Armories to US importers in the early 1990s for collector sale. Amazingly, the Arisaka, like many Moisin Nagants I have fired was inaccurate at 100 yards, and much tighter overall groups at 200. I have fired SMLE1 and 4 versions; a M91/30; a Schmidt - Rubin 7.5mm; the Mannlincher; and a M44 Carbine. I must say there are significant differences across the bolt - action offerings of the time period. Most noticably, the Nagants require te bayonet fixed to group well at any range beyond 50 yards; the Schmidt - Rubin allows for such a small short stroke of the bolt one can achieve close to semiautomatic ROF, it also has detachable - pre loadable magazines. The hard push / pull of the Arisaka making it a requirement to remove from the shoulder to present a new round . no, there are too many differences.

Nowadays, the Krag would make a good deer rifle, maybe coyotes. The arisaka could realistically drop a deer in brush with a spitzer. The Mauser is capable of Elk and black bear,moose and deer, as well as any furbearing animal. The Springfield can be customized by round to handle any large game. The Nagant, I'd believe with that BC and bullet drop to be as effective on a deer or elk, maybe a black bear, but you'd need a close in shot. SMLE, well the .303 is pretty close to a M901 ball in ballistics, so it would work well for anything up to deer size, and a well placed shot would work for elk, but I do not know that the bullet weights being modern - loaded for SMLEs are up the task of larger game.

Any long distance shooting, I'd want a smaller bullet than .30 calibre. I am routinely surprised at the effective range shots made by these guns over telescopic sights in WW2. ( Assuming you need similar ballistics to lethally damage a deer as one needs to lethally damage a human being.) Yet there is more than ample evidence that ballistically at least, there is still sufficient force at ranges in excess of 300 yards with any of these .30 calibre rounds in their military issue spitzer forms, at least. I much prefer something in the .25 calibre range for long - distance ( over 450 yds). you need the lighter bullet to maintain an effective force on impact. Say .257 Roberts Magnum or a .22-250 or a .250 Savage.
( The modern .223 military ball is quite lethal at up to 600 yards. Much for the same reasons.) As we are talking infantry weapons overall, I will still go with an 'O3-A3, unless you know where one can acquire an 'O3- A4 at sub 3K USD cost. The weapon served longer overall in US armories than the Mauser did for the Germans, and commands the same level of current usage and modifications for sporting purposes , simply due to the versatility of the .30-06 loadings.

The Garand was the weapon that changed the ideas of a battle rifle; but it was not used nearly as long, and was quickly supplanted when compared to such as the Springfield or the Mauser or even the Schmidt - Rubin ( a fine rifle by far).

KRL, Jon H
 

prymus

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I shoot a Remington 243 for deer, made in 1959, hand checkered stalk, simply a beautiful weapon, and would not use anything else for deer. I've put exit holes in big deer considerably larger than a soft ball. It's amazing the amount of damage that round can do. Good friend of mine uses 7mm mag for Elk and has harvested every tag he's pulled. I have not been drawn for Elk yet, but would use a 30-06. Friend of mine hunted Brown bear with 30-06. Bear came out into the road, he shot just as it swung back side to him, was hit but ran, 3 more hits to finally put the bear down. Bear had a hole from the first shot that entered just above and to the left of anus, traveled up his back farther than a mans arm, and left a hole bigger than a fist for that distance. Imagine what it does to human flesh, not a pretty picture.
 

witchbottles

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I shoot a Remington 243 for deer, made in 1959, hand checkered stalk, simply a beautiful weapon, and would not use anything else for deer. I've put exit holes in big deer considerably larger than a soft ball. It's amazing the amount of damage that round can do. Good friend of mine uses 7mm mag for Elk and has harvested every tag he's pulled. I have not been drawn for Elk yet, but would use a 30-06. Friend of mine hunted Brown bear with 30-06. Bear came out into the road, he shot just as it swung back side to him, was hit but ran, 3 more hits to finally put the bear down. Bear had a hole from the first shot that entered just above and to the left of anus, traveled up his back farther than a mans arm, and left a hole bigger than a fist for that distance. Imagine what it does to human flesh, not a pretty picture.
Some interesting reading last night I did on the M14 - M1A design. It would appear that the U.S. government, looking at the poor ballistics of the .30-06 round beyond 400 yards decided to create a .30 calibre bullet that could become a standardized NATO round and would vastly improve the BC of the .30 calibre spitzer bulllet in the 400- 750 yard range. The Result the 7.62 x 51mm NATO ( also known as the .308 Winchester).

Small wonder the .308 rapidly supplanted the .30-06 as the prime NATO round upon introduction. Still used on any game up to North American Dangerous game levels ( ie Kodiak Bear, Moose, Mountain Lion.) as well as by both Military and police snipers world wide in several offerings of both semi - automatic and bolt action designs.

I'd consider the round a bit light against a "heavier " target. ie African Dangerous Game, or soft -skinned vehicles or light AFVs. A lucky or very well placed hit, sure, it would do well out to 550-600 yards of so. But you would need a very good hit indeed. Apparently, however, the Sniper teams in afghanistan from the PPCLI were quite satisfied with their hits and the round itself in being capable of "digging" out a chunk of rock outcropping and penetrating ( and spalling) into the Taliban fighter behind it. Seems those match grade .308 spitzers are more than capable of up to 1/2 inch splintering and penetration of granite.

KRL ,Jon H
 
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