Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

Whizbang1963

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
2,582
Reaction score
107
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
I meant Pitman gents..no issues with Pward or footsteps or Dorosh..while all of us can be annoying, Pitman just goes way over the top and takes it all to the extreme. And he says we have to be concerned with right wing extremists...THink we need to be more worried about you leftist extremists
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,445
Reaction score
1,510
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
I meant Pitman gents..no issues with Pward or footsteps or Dorosh..while all of us can be annoying, Pitman just goes way over the top and takes it all to the extreme. And he says we have to be concerned with right wing extremists...THink we need to be more worried about you leftist extremists
NO ISSUES WITH DOROSH? :surprise:

And you call yourself an ASLer! :angry:

:p
 

RobZagnut

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
1,378
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
From the Critical Hit ‘About Critical Hit’ topic:

Portal; said:
It's also foolish to claim I hold expectations upon BFP considering I haven't ordered any of their products, nor asked them to do anything on my behalf.
I’ve held off until now, but this has become absurd.

If you have no expectations of BFP then why did you start this topic and make the following four quotes in this topic? I’ve never seen anyone talk out of both sides of his mouth as often as you.

Portal; said:
"Now with the BFP scenario, I'm cool with it because they're providing special discounts for customers who choose to show faith via pre-pay. That's finding the necessary middle ground to me. "

"FWIW, I think Boundingfire.com should be the primary vehicle of communication with your customers with respect to overall order status. Don't rely on third-party Web forums. "

"If I had an order placed directly with BFP, I would first look at the BFP Web site for major product status updates. I would want official information if I thought my order was delayed, so I would look to the most official, credible source that I thought was intended to reach the widest audience of real, paying customers. I know the majority of ASL players don't use online ASL forums on any type of regular basis, so it makes sense to go to the company's official Web site."

"Cheers, Brian. In among the noise, I hope some useful customer interaction tidbits have been discovered by your crew as sources of good ideas for future product management. "
If you haven’t bought anything from BFP and if you hold them to no expectations, then you should keep your little mouth quiet and let the grown-ups who have actually bought the product talk to BFP about what we expect of them. Hopefully, BFP will tell you to shove it like MMP did.

This reminds me of the Heat of Battle topic about Kreta where you ranted and raved about the quality of the map and you hadn’t even seen it yet, let alone bought it. All the negativity caused Klaus Fischer to quit and now you have the balls to do it here again?

We don’t need a Damocles Sword of ASL where you sit above the head of all ASL publishers waiting to pounce when they make a mistake, ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON’T OWN THE PRODUCT!!!

You try and talk a good game, but your suggestions actually suck. The guys who create ASL stuff work hard and do it THEIR WAY for a reason. They don’t need some player who has never produced an ASL item and who is only interested in all day long scenarios telling them how to run their business. They don’t need someone who has stated,"I DON’T NEED MORE ASL" telling them what you want. You are not their target audience!

Your talk has made ZERO change in the way any of these companies run their business. It only creates frustration and anger for them as they have to listen to your constant harping. STOP IT! I don’t want to see a BFP member quit due to your constant negative comments. They are doing an awesome job and need support and encouragement, not constant complaining, which you don’t even have a right to do here.

As they say in Texas, "You have no dog in this fight." The sooner you realize this and act accordingly, the sooner it will be better for all involved.

 

Doc Martin

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
443
Reaction score
51
Location
Tulsa, OK
From the Critical Hit ‘About Critical Hit’ topic:

As they say in Texas, "You have no dog in this fight." The sooner you realize this and act accordingly, the sooner it will be better for all involved.
I can't rep you Rob, but well said!

Doc
 

pward

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
4,055
Reaction score
70
Location
Springfield, IL
Country
llUnited States
I repped him too.

Nice to know others are as irked with Portals posts as I am.

Seems to me that Portal want's MMP to be the sole source for all things ASL, no TPP ASL publishers and no alternate product lines from MMP. Why exactly, I don't know.
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,445
Reaction score
1,510
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
I repped him too.

Nice to know others are as irked with Portals posts as I am.

Seems to me that Portal want's MMP to be the sole source for all things ASL, no TPP ASL publishers and no alternate product lines from MMP. Why exactly, I don't know.
Not true. They are producing plenty of scenarios so MMP doesn't need too... oh wait, all need to stop and get more players playing... oh wait, he needs DB3 and the map bundle... oh wait, TPPs are more innovative so they need to produce more scenarios... oh wait, all need to stop and get more players playing... oh wait, he needs DB3 and the map bundle... oh wait, TPPs are more innovative so they need to produce more scenarios... oh wait, all need to stop and get more players playing... oh wait, he needs DB3 and the map bundle... oh wait, TPPs are more innovative so they need to produce more scenarios... oh wait, all need to stop and get more players playing... oh wait, he needs DB3 and the map bundle... oh wait, TPPs are more innovative so they need to produce more scenarios... :rolleyes:
 

tweaker

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
71
Reaction score
3
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I think if you pre-pay that you can take on additional risk. What happens if I pre-pay, and I never receive a product? Pre-paying sounds like investing.
 

Doc Martin

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
443
Reaction score
51
Location
Tulsa, OK
I think if you pre-pay that you can take on additional risk. What happens if I pre-pay, and I never receive a product? Pre-paying sounds like investing.
We are a capitalist economy. Just be glad it is Bounding Fire and Bear Stearns
 

Portal

The Eminem of ASL
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,348
Reaction score
56
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
Wolkey,

The only negativity being espoused in this thread is from self-righteous forum users like yourself who are trying to spin the whole situation as if I'm telling anybody, be it BFP or anyone else, what to do based upon some personal agenda attached to me sharing an opinion that they don't happen to like.

If you actually pay attention to what guys like Sarge and Brian B have been saying in this thread, they're actually finding some useful feedback tidbits among all the noise. Heck, Sarge even directly asked for some of my perspective. Hopefully, there was something of value there for him (his call).

This reminds me of the Heat of Battle topic about Kreta where you ranted and raved about the quality of the map and you hadn’t even seen it yet, let alone bought it. All the negativity caused Klaus Fischer to quit and now you have the balls to do it here again?
Wrong, and we have no idea why Fischer made what personal decisions he made (you might want to ask him). My criticism was with respect to HOB releasing a product that didn't meet their own internal quality standards, which they openly admitted. It had nothing to do with aspects of the map (it was several others who focused on the map), and you're only confusing or deliberately misdirecting (I don't know which) complaints of others with comments of my own. If you, Psycho, or pward are going to complain about my opinions, at least get your facts right.

I started the thread to discuss. That's what I'm here for. For some others, it seems like other motivations are involved.
 
Last edited:

fwheel73

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
80
Location
Oklahoma
Country
llUnited States
I think if you pre-pay that you can take on additional risk. What happens if I pre-pay, and I never receive a product? Pre-paying sounds like investing.
I think you are here only talking about drug dealers when you talk about risk.:).

I have tried to make it clear that pre-pay/subscription is a valid mechanism/business tool whereby the TPP (or MMP for that matter) with very small checkbooks can avoid the costs of borrowing money to bring a desirable ASL product to completion--mainly, the print cost. As as been stressed--maybe it was only me doing the stressing--the only person who is going to prepay/subscribe is the ASLer who trusts the TPP. Prepay/subscription will not be for everyone since some do not know the TPP, is not in a position to trust the TPP or just doesn't like to buy a new product. Some TPPs may give a discount (some say its a gimmick) to a limited number of prepayers/subscribers....but each person makes a decision if prepay is what they want to do (it is obvious that Pitman did not like prepay/subscription mechanism and we got this tread:)).

If you don't want to prepay/subscribe that is absolutely fine...trusted TPPS should have enough subscribers to make it a valuable tool--discount or not. In the case of BFP, many ASLers trust the leaders of this TPP.... their word is their bond, plus the quality of their work indicates that trust is not misplaced. I think many trust the folks at MMP and some wish that they might use the prepay/subscription mechanism to bring some of the print intensive ASL products to the market.

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

tweaker

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
71
Reaction score
3
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I have tried to make it clear that pre-pay/subscription is a valid mechanism/business tool whereby the TPP (or MMP for that matter) with very small checkbooks can avoid the costs of borrowing money to bring a desirable ASL product to completion--mainly, the print cost.
Hey, I'm all for subscription models. One that works very well is Battlecorps, which provides a steady cash flow. This also helped keep Battletech alive.

Other options are ransom models.

Here are some other examples:

http://www.danielsolis.com/meatbot/ransom.html

http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-05-03.1184433215

Both are possibilities. With the ransom model, scenario developers can put together action packs, receive the desired income from the pack, and then provide the action pack for free to everyone via PDF.

The later one you see up there was to setup funding for a publisher to produce a new book, which still hasn't been released yet.

However, the distinction needs to be made between providing up front development, which really sounds like an investment opportunity to me, and a subscription service, where I pay expecting a certain number of "issues" to arrive at my door each year. Get where I am coming from?

I hope I have also provided some other options.
 

fwheel73

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
80
Location
Oklahoma
Country
llUnited States
Hey, I'm all for subscription models. One that works very well is Battlecorps, which provides a steady cash flow. This also helped keep Battletech alive.

Other options are ransom models.

Here are some other examples:
[big snip]
However, the distinction needs to be made between providing up front development, which really sounds like an investment opportunity to me, and a subscription service, where I pay expecting a certain number of "issues" to arrive at my door each year. Get where I am coming from?

I hope I have also provided some other options.
tweaker,

Without looking at all the models.... I think the only purpose for prepay/subscription that we have been discussing is a system where the ASL TPP decide it is too much money to commit to priniting a big module like BFP's BtB 2 and BFP 2. The profit margin for TPP's, I guess, is little to zero, for the time and expense exerted. It is really just for the love of the game:).

Key point is that if a TPP is a trusted producer many ASLers will find it worth their effort to prepay/subscribe to an announced module that is ready to go except for the printing of the good stuff... of course, after printing comes collation and mailing. BFP expected it to be a month or so but the printer could not do the work and we had to wait. So this is not prepaying for future development...... it is funding the final stage of production before shipment which is for a reasonable period of time like 1 month maybe 2 if sheet happens:)..... period.

At least that is what I was stressing in my commentary.

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

Portal

The Eminem of ASL
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,348
Reaction score
56
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
John F,

I appreciate your civil tone in this discussion, but we need to get this message right:

As far as I can tell, Pitman is fine with the pre-pay concept. He was just not happy a product didn't ship within a particular timeframe after his money was sent that would have satisfied him.

Let's not contribute to mischaracterizations.
 
Top