Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

fwheel73

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John F,

I appreciate your civil tone in this discussion, but we need to get this message right:

As far as I can tell, Pitman is fine with the pre-pay concept. He was just not happy a product didn't ship within a particular timeframe after his money was sent that would have satisfied him.

Let's not contribute to mischaracterizations.
Portal,

No problem with that.... don't want to mischaracterize what he thought. If that is the case.... why even say a single word?.... he seems--my opinion-- to think that the good guys at BFP should change what they were doing to satisfy him and his view of how TPP things should go..... when in fact we all knew what had happend at the printer (and why we prepayed). Now it is completly possible I am way out in left field...:nuts:. I'll forget how we started off....

I have stressed the completely voluntary aspect of prepay/subscription and that it--prepay-- solves a problem that the non-cash rich TPPs have at the critical point of going to press--not much cash. I would also stress, again :), that no one should prepay unless the buyer views the TPP as "trusted." If Mark viewed them as trusted, and saw that there was an uncontrolable event occuring at the printers--"box cars" plus breaking ELR-- he would not have said squat. If it was a controlable event at the printers he might have turned the culprit TPP into a non-trusted one and he won't prepay on the next one--no comment would have been needed, especially telling the TPP to do it differently next time and the etc.

I would love to play Pitman, everyone says he is a good apple in person, but I think we didn't need the storm and we will hopefully see a disappearing ill wind.

I hope all the TPPs (including MMP) are or will be trusted in the future so that as prepays help get costs under control we will continue to see a steady stream of good ASL stuff (where is the map pack?). I just wish they could sell us some time:D.

(Dang it... one week to Austin. Portal.... if you want to come on down to Austin we'll let you crowd into our room for a small price?:) )

Best regards,:salute:
John
 
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Portal

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John F,

I will see you in OKC soon. I expect I will be travelling there with work a reasonable amount over the next 12 months. We will play a tourney scenario or two. :) I'm also going to look closely at Austin as my ASL event travel choice for 2010. The Omaha event this year sounds awesome.

With the whole Pitman thing, I think the whole issue would have been avoided if BFP simply focused on getting the product delay information out clearly on their Web site. Pitman wasn't in the loop because he doesn't use GS that often. As a paying customer, he had a right to access the most reasonable method of staying in the loop: fresh info on the BFP Web site.

I have the impression the guys recognize the opportunity to use their Web site for info of keen interest to customers, and I'm sure some good learnings have been achieved by everyone involved.
 

RobZagnut

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My criticism was with respect to HOB releasing a product that didn't meet their own internal quality standards, which they openly admitted. It had nothing to do with aspects of the map (it was several others who focused on the map), and you're only confusing or deliberately misdirecting (I don't know which) complaints of others with comments of my own.
You seem to forget how easy it is to go back and ‘review’ what you actually did say as I have shown many times that you talk out of both sides of your mouth. So, let’s see who is "confusing or deliberately misdirecting" shall we?

All of the statements below were taken from the ‘Kreta’ topic.

If it had nothing to do with the aspects of the map, then why do you refer to the map twice in this statement below? Lying again? Your last sentence is a particularly nasty dig and typical of you.

I agree with Pitman that HOB acted unprofessionally in releasing the Kreta product with a map it knew full well it didn't match the specs they provided to their printing company.

Pitman is bang-on, HOB should have delayed the Kreta release until they received a well-deserved new map run from their printer which met their specs. Their printer should be held accountable for their fundamental mistakes. And HOB should be accountable for their decision to use a poor printing company, as well as trying to let this printing error slide with their customers.

I'll be honest and admit I don't buy from companies which act unprofessionally in entirely preventable ways.
Here is Steve D’s response to you as he is responding to what is obviously the most brutal of the complaints.

"I agree with Pitman that HOB acted unprofessionally in releasing the Kreta product with a map it knew full well it didn't match the specs they provided to their printing company".

Dude thats what I'm talking about I got 40 copies and opened one and did not sense a big issue, only after the complaints came in did I look more closely into it and talk with the printer and found out the details. It may have been a lapse but no intention of doing the wrong thing.
Here’s your second attack. YOU DON’T EVEN OWN THE PRODUCT AND HADN’T SEEN IT!!!

Stevedeth,
I'm curious to know why you weren't more thorough when you reviewed the final batch of map "proofs" from your printer. If I was about to ship 1000+ paper copies of items I have customers paying for, I would take close care to final look and feel of final product before the product left the door.

As a prospective customer, I'm turned off from HOB, not because the Kreta map is "too thin", but that your company released a product that you knew did not meet your own internal production specifications. And is still debating what it's going to do about it.
Here is Steve D’s response and you can tell he is upset. He did not respond this way to any other person.

Portal,
Thanks for paying attention. The part about the proofs were good and I did not detect a problem with the production copy that I opened? If you want me to open each copy of shrink wrapped product then I may have to hire some umpaloompas to look at it, unless you want to come over and do it. It not like we said tuff **** after the problems manifested, we are trying to work it out the problem but some of you still seem to think that we are just out to screw you. This is what I am talking about let me sort it out if you don't want to buy anything in the future fine I don't want to sell it to you. There are now four people on that list that we will not accept orders from.

In case you all missed it. Sorry that there is an issue with the Thinness of the map, IT WAS NOT INTENDED AND NOT CAUGHT IN TIME I APOLOGISE FOR THE OVERSIGHT. I AM IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PRINTER TO SEE IF ANYTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT. IF YOUR MAP IS SO BAD THAT YOU CANNOT PLAY ON IT THEN CONTACT ME DIRECTLY AND WE WILL WORK SOMETHING OUT.
Again, you didn’t own the product and had no intention of buying it, but you took special glee in their misery and piled on the best you could with this comment:

I have yet to read anything in this thread which ignores what HOB has succeeded in doing and what they do well. I have read some comments in this thread that ignores some HOB product weaknesses and areas for improvement just because "HOB are a bunch of great guys".
And now you are doing the EXACT SAME THING to Bounding Fire!

Leja, It’s obvious that you take pleasure in the pain of others. Instead of being supportive you love to find a weakness. You pick at that weakness and continue to pick until you get your pound of flesh. Why did you attack Steve D? Why do you constantly remind MMP about DB3 and the Map Bundle at every opportunity? Why did you start this topic? So you can continue to pick. So you can continue to pile on and add to their misery. You don’t support our hobby, you pick at it and suck the lifeblood from it. Then you innocently claim, "I’m just trying to give them useful feedback."

I call BULLSH!T on you and your tactics.
 

fwheel73

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I meant that I had repped him as well, not asking for rep! But thank you very much, Fwheel73! :thumup: :thumup:
Looking for a Guinness sometime when we get to Dublin!.... not Dublin, Texas:)

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

fwheel73

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John F,

[big snip]
With the whole Pitman thing, I think.....
[ big snip]
I have the impression the guys recognize the opportunity to use their Web site for info of keen interest to customers, and I'm sure some good learnings have been achieved by everyone involved.
I agree.... I think there has been much learned in regard to necessary sales and support communications as well as and, more importantly, the prepay/subscription mechanism for trusted TPPs. Now we can see if lessons are learned.

Later!

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

pward

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I agree.... I think there has been much learned in regard to necessary sales and support communications as well as and, more importantly, the prepay/subscription mechanism for trusted TPPs. Now we can see if lessons are learned.

Later!

Best regards,:salute:
John
Lesson learned: If enough people choose not to trust a publisher with a pre-pay system, the publisher will be forced to choose a different production plan. Vote with your wallet.
 

Portal

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Wolkey,

I'm not going to vindicate such an imflammatory post with a detailed response. It's unlikely you will listen to anything other than your distorted mindset anyways.

If you want to discuss anything further and politely about HOB or Kreta, please take it to the HOB sub-forum. I didn't start this thread to delve up old discussion of the Kreta map / QC issues, or get into detailed tit-for-tat over old thread posts stripped in isolation of their original full context.

I will repeat, though, that I think this thread has resulted in some productive conversation and I believe BFP now has some ideas to improve product release communication for the future. All good stuff.
 

pward

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I'm not going to vindicate such an imflammatory post with a detailed response. It's unlikely you will listen to anything other than your distorted mindset anyways.
You have studied under the tutelage of Master Pitman I see, the troll is strong in this one.

Righteous indignation and abuse all in the same rhetoric filled post.
 

Portal

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It's posts like pward's that make me realize Pitman isn't the problem, and never really has been. The dude is only guilty of having a firm opinion, sharing it, and of taking people's bait when they attack him for that opinion.

I don't blame the guy for not coming around GS that often. And I also can see why a bunch of the CSW guys openly post why they don't visit GS for ASL chat.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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...I don't blame the guy for not coming around GS that often. And I also can see why a bunch of the CSW guys openly post why they don't visit GS for ASL chat.
Maybe because the same complaining *****-thread keeps popping up under different guises repeatedly?
 

fwheel73

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Lesson learned: If enough people choose not to trust a publisher with a pre-pay system, the publisher will be forced to choose a different production plan. Vote with your wallet.
Agree fully on this! Whether economic times are hard or good it makes sense for the low profit TPPs (isn't that all of them:)) to make good choices about the final product that will come from the printer. The trusted ones will do the necessary work to insure that they get enough of the wallet votes to allow them to repeat the process time after time. I like the prepay/subscription mechanism as it pays off in a lower cost to the trusted TPP--keeps them in the low to no profit business-- and gives the consuming ASLer a product faster... whether they prepay/subscribe or not.

I guess we are about at the end of this thread! Hope to see you all in Austin next week! :hurray:

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

pward

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It's posts like pward's that make me realize Pitman isn't the problem, and never really has been. The dude is only guilty of having a firm opinion, sharing it, and of taking people's bait when they attack him for that opinion.

I don't blame the guy for not coming around GS that often. And I also can see why a bunch of the CSW guys openly post why they don't visit GS for ASL chat.
Pitman has his opinions, and is entitled to them (as are you, and everyone else). We don't complain about his opinion itself, but rather the pretentious nature he takes on when a dissenting opinion is posted.

Much like you do when I put forth reasonable responses to your incessant threads and posts. If his pretentious arguments don't work, he falls back to the "oh woe is me, I'm being persecuted" defense, or throws in his PHD in history as if it carries weight in a game forum.
 

Psycho

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Pitman has his opinions, and is entitled to them (as are you, and everyone else). We don't complain about his opinion itself, but rather the pretentious nature he takes on when a dissenting opinion is posted.

Much like you do when I put forth reasonable responses to your incessant threads and posts. If his pretentious arguments don't work, he falls back to the "oh woe is me, I'm being persecuted" defense, or throws in his PHD in history as if it carries weight in a game forum.
:clap:

For those who don't follow CSW, it is filled with the same crap as here (off topic, whining about product, etc) but it isn't threaded so you have to see everything. :)
 

Jay White

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:clap:
For those who don't follow CSW, it is filled with the same crap as here (off topic, whining about product, etc) but it isn't threaded so you have to see everything. :)
I agree, both sites have an equal amount of crap in the MMP area.

However, of that crap, there is 2% childish namecalling and longwinded back-and-forths on consimworld, as opposed to about 40% on here. Consimworld is moderated, so the retards can't get out of hand.

Most other areas of consimworld are very b.s.-free, though. There will be a dozen ridiculous puns in a row, but mostly you're hearing about new games, strategies, and rules. Any harshness is taken care of pretty quickly. Depends what you like, I guess.

I've recently noted that no other game company forums have -nearly- the amount of whining about product that MMP has.
 
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Portal

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Isn't the main reason with Avalanche is because they refuse to support VASSAL?
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Isn't the main reason with Avalanche is because they refuse to support VASSAL?
No.

Delays in production (somewhat understandable given A.) their printer's going out-of-business in the middle of a print run and B.) The Move)

Other issues, of greater or lesser impact, have made the past few years difficult ones for APL.
 
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RobZagnut

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If you want to discuss anything further and politely about HOB or Kreta, please take it to the HOB sub-forum. I didn't start this thread to delve up old discussion of the Kreta map / QC issues, or get into detailed tit-for-tat over old thread posts stripped in isolation of their original full context.

Leja,

I'm not going to let you weasel out of this one. Those posts were your FULL words, I did not strip out anything.

Pretty shocking isn't it. To see your words later in their full content and how you could say such things to Steve D after not owning or seeing the product.

I would be too embarassed to want to talk about it further too. It's sorry to see that you haven't learned from your past screw-ups. So, next time buy the product, open it up, look thru it... and then you might be qualified as a CUSTOMER to make a comment.

Otherwise, you might continue to be embarassed as you look back and see how stupid you sound when you make your comments.
 

Chas

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Regardless of what terminology people decide to use the bottom line is this.

We start the preorder process when we go the printer. There is no risk in not getting the product. We dont do prepay in advance, ie the product is still under development and ask people to start ordering.

The size and scope of the product will dictate the time, along with the quality. Smaller projects may only take 30 days, while others may take.......120? And it also depends. If the printer gives us proofs and/or final products that are messed up the time adds on. Unfortunately much of this is out of our control except ensuring high quality standards.

Thank you,
Chas
 
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