Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

Portal

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In fairness to the BFP guys, let's take this discussion to this new thread so that the PTO thread can be about the upcoming BFP PTO product.

I just want to say that I really think Pitman has a fair point for customers to expect a pre-paid advance order (not just a commitment for a customer CC to be charged at point of shipping) should result in an actual product being delivered to the customer within 30 days or so. It's not the customer's problem that a publisher is hung up with the printer or some other portion of the supply chain.

I just think if you want the money up-front, a publisher needs to work to a higher level of accountability and make their problems, fully their own problems.

Let's leave the personalities aside and discuss this legitimate customer relationship issue that I'm sure affects a bunch of TPPs and not just BFP.

What do you think?
 

paulkenny

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I thnk that publish something is difficult and when it is a hobby it is infinitely more difficult. I think that BFP has acted honorably and people need to get an F'in life.
 

Portal

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I didn't make it explicitly clear, so let me clarify: this thread has no intent to pass judgement on any BFP success or failure. I just want to discuss the issue, and I started the thread here for relevance because BFP is a major TPP who accepts pre-pay orders.
 

paulkenny

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and I think the whole complaint against BFP is horse hockey.

So they took a couple months to correct a problem to assure the product was of highest quality.

Spit happens in life, deal with it. Again its not like BFP was doing something with the money, they were making sure that the product was the best it could be.

its not like Chas was sitting in a room like Ebenezeer Scrooge rolling on a bed of coins. They in apparent good faith anticipated that the product would be mailing, a major snafu occurred and they rectified it quickly.

If you want a perfect life, better kill yourself and go to heaven cause stuff here on earth dont work that way.
 

Jay White

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I think a small thing is being blown out of proportion, just like the Crete map.

This is the third thread about it now, isn't it?

I would say it's beating a dead horse by now, but I suppose most ASL topics have been covered at least a dozen times in this forum already.

I vote that more threads are started about pictures of hot chix. Lets beat THAT dead horse! (..if you know what I'm sayin'...)
 

Doc Martin

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I didn't make it explicitly clear, so let me clarify: this thread has no intent to pass judgement on any BFP success or failure. I just want to discuss the issue, and I started the thread here for relevance because BFP is a major TPP who accepts pre-pay orders.

I bought a rucksack 2 years ago that cost 400 dollars for the base pack, and then got attachments that upped it to over 600 dollars.

Was charged.

And then waited 4 months for it. Well worth it. Best damn pack I have ever owned.

Moral? The lag time between payment and delivery means little to me. I am after quality. And IF that means paying and waiting I will.

Same thing with upper recievers. They just cost more.

Doc
 

paulkenny

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I built a house. I put 10% down on the house with expected delivery in 18 months. They took 24 months to build it. I was not happy with the delay but happy that I have windows on my house.
 

rdw5150

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Hi!

If this is not about BfP then it should have been in the general forum and not under their company support area:nervous:. Just MHO.

Now that I have said that. I will not pre-pay for any gaming item. I will pre-order thus comitting my money once a products ships. That is how I decided to do it a while ago and how I will continue to do so.

I try not to pre-pay for anything, this is not just my policy when buying games. If I special order something, then fine, but if I ordering something that is not a special order, I wait unti someone has it in stock.

I also think a lot was made of nothing with this. While I did (and still do) feel Mark has a point (not that he is 100% right or the way things played out was 100% right), it was definately not an issue that needed all the attention.:hush:

I wonder if someone else would have said "you know I wish BFP would not have charged me almost three months in advance" if there would have been such a big broo ha ha over it.

Of course we'll never know as after the original comment poop hit the fan quickly.:clown:

Anyway, just my two pennies...

Peace

Roger

PS Since Jay brought it up, I still think the original Crete map was poor and was a bigger "problem" (to me) than this:nuts::clown:

but bought the replacement I was much happier with
 

rdw5150

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I built a house. I put 10% down on the house with expected delivery in 18 months. They took 24 months to build it. I was not happy with the delay but happy that I have windows on my house.
And what if you would have put into your contract a stipulation that penalized the company building your house so much every month it was late, bet you would be happier yet:smoke::clown::nuts:

Peace

roger
 

paulkenny

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actually not cause they would have cut corners to meet the deadline, thus leaving me with a less quality house.
 

King Scott

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I prefer Pre-Order, with the charges hitting when the product ships. But I feel that may only be an option for MMP.

Pre-Pay is what most ASL companies have to do, and I understand that and am OK with it...within reason. One of the reasons that CH got a black eye was taking Pre-Pay and then not delivering the product for well over a year, closer to two years (my personal experience) without any updates to the customers. I think that taking Pre-Pay orders when the product is "close" to completion is OK ("close" is vague, I know), say 1-2 months out.

I think that it is unfair to knock BFP for their recent issues. They did the right thing in that they quickly notified the general ASL public that they had run into an unforseen snag and that there was going to be a delay. They kept in constant communication with as many ASLers as possible by posting here and elsewhere...something that CH failed to do back when I had my issues with them (credit where credit is due, Dave Lamb has made major improvements in this category, which is why I gave them another chance and Pre-Paid for Omaha).

I understand that unplanned problems will arrise, like the printer printing the counters backwards or off center...I appreciate that the producer was willing to fix the problem and deliver to me a higher quality product...in a case like that, I will be OK with waiting additional time to get the product...what I will not tolerate is silence from the producer...if that happens, I won't Pre-Pay with them any more...I'll order from a retailer after it does finally hit the shelves.

Hey...people pay for their funerals ahead of time now...if Mom lives a couple of more years than expected, can I contact the cemetary/funeral home and b!tch to them about not delivering on the product I Pre-Paid for? :p:laugh::nuts::clown:

Semper Fi!
Scott
 

rdw5150

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actually not cause they would have cut corners to meet the deadline, thus leaving me with a less quality house.
I know I was just kidding. But there is a huge difference in asking for money down for a house and charging for a game:smoke:

In the end, if it were wait and get a good product, or get a 2nd rate product on time, I'll wait. I just will not be super happy about it.

Peace

roger
 

rdw5150

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I prefer Pre-Order, with the charges hitting when the product ships. But I feel that may only be an option for MMP.
For ASL or games in general? GMT does it this way too, which is why GMT and MMP are the only companies I will pre-order from.


I think that it is unfair to knock BFP for their recent issues. They did the right thing in that they quickly notified the general ASL public that they had run into an unforseen snag and that there was going to be a delay. They kept in constant communication with as many ASLers as possible by posting here and elsewhere...something that CH failed to do back when I had my issues with them (credit where credit is due, Dave Lamb has made major improvements in this category, which is why I gave them another chance and Pre-Paid for Omaha).
CH is a company I will never pre-order from. I am not a CH hater, but I am CH cautious. Dave has made things much better and frankly I would rather buy my CH from Dave.

Peace

roger
 

Scott_Blanton

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I think GMT charges before items ship, once they get "close" to a finsihed product. However, I could be wrong.
 

Psycho

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Portal: Please, I like Critical Hit! Fancy schmancy! What a cinch! Go fly a kite! Cat got your tongue! Hill of beans! Betty Boop, what a dish. Betty Grable, nice gams. I say can you see! I say can you see! I... I say... Fück HOB. Fück BFP! Fück MMP! Fück Ebay! Fück Paypal!




Chas: Get your BFP gear. Let's go.

ASLSarge: You heard him, gear up. Your captain... uh, major just gave you an order.

Pitman: Yeah, like the one he gave to take the Crete map. That was a real doozey, wasn't it?

ASLSarge: Pitman, you are way out of line!




Pitman: Yes sir, that was one hell of a call on the Crete map, but hell, we only lost a couple months waiting for the reprint. That's right, I hope you're real fück'n happy knowing that cheap Crete's map is a little bit more important than our hard earned money! But then again we haven't found out yet have we? Have we?




ASLSarge: Pitman, get up. Gear up. Fall in.

Pitman: I'm done with this prepay instead of preorder.

ASLSarge: Hey, hey! Don't you walk away from your captain... uh, major. Pitman, get back in line.

Pitman: No sir, I'll spend the rest of my life in my mom's basement if I have to, but I'm done with this.

ASLSarge: I'm not going to ask you again, Pitman.

Pitman: You going to shoot me over this?

ASLSarge: No I'm going to shoot you 'cause I don't like you.

Pitman: You won't kill that son of a b!tch Portal and now you're going to shoot me?

ASLSarge: He's better than you. Well, not really. I'll shoot him next.

Pitman: Then why don't you just do it Sarge. Do it man, put one in my leg.

ASLSarge: I'm going to shoot you in your big göddamn mouth.

Pitman: Well, put your money where your mouth is and do it...

ASLSarge: You don't know when to shut up. You don't know how to shut up. You are a pompous son of a b!tch!

Pitman: I'm waiting Sarge.




Fish: I'm a has been. I used to be somebody... in this little town called Addley, Pennsylvania. The last eleven years, I've been a nobody. I was a coach of the Statis-Pro baseball team in the springtime. Back home, I tell people what I do and they think, "Damn! That's pathetic." But over here, it's a big, big mystery. So, I guess I've changed some. Sometimes I wonder if I've changed so much anybody is even going to recognize me, whenever it is that I get back. And how I'll ever be able to tell anyone about days like today. Ah, BFP. I don't know anything about BFP. I don't care. The company means nothing to me. It's just a company. But if... You know if going to the mailbox and finding a package so that I can go home... If that earns me the right to get back to my pitiful little life, then that's my mission.




Fish: You want to leave? You want to go off and fight the war against BFP? All right. All right. I won't stop you. I'll even put in the paperwork. I just know that every post I make belittling that wonderful man Psycho the more pathetic I feel.




Portal: I know this soldier. I know this man . . . ASLSarge.

BANG!

</scene>
 

ASLSARGE

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The ending of that movie was a little hazy. So, did the good guys win in the end? And where's my popcorn? :popc1:
 

pward

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In fairness to the BFP guys, let's take this discussion to this new thread so that the PTO thread can be about the upcoming BFP PTO product.

I just want to say that I really think Pitman has a fair point for customers to expect a pre-paid advance order (not just a commitment for a customer CC to be charged at point of shipping) should result in an actual product being delivered to the customer within 30 days or so. It's not the customer's problem that a publisher is hung up with the printer or some other portion of the supply chain.

I just think if you want the money up-front, a publisher needs to work to a higher level of accountability and make their problems, fully their own problems.

Let's leave the personalities aside and discuss this legitimate customer relationship issue that I'm sure affects a bunch of TPPs and not just BFP.

What do you think?
I think you have inappropriate expectations when it comes to how other companies manage their own affairs. One post on an internet forum doesn't change the course of a company. Pitman does too.

Pitman's point is valid only for Pitman, he doesn't speak for all of the ASL community. If he was that irked about the delay, he could have contacted BFP for a refund, or gone through the right channels at paypal. (If that's even possible, I don't use paypal.) He hasn't mentioned (or I haven't noticed it mentioned) that he tried either approach before he asked them to change their ways.

It's not like they didn't communicate the delay to enough folks/places to let people know there was a problem. (Going from previous comments, I'm not even sure what product to search for to find a post here.) It is a reasonable expectation to receive product in a timely manner after payment. It's not so reasonable when there are unforeseen delays. (And there is always the fact that "timely" means different things to different folks.)

And, as always; you and Pitman have the option to stop purchasing from vendors you don't agree with.
 

rcornwell

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Given the wild fluctuations in exchange rates, pre paying has its attractions as I know what I've paid. Some pre orders last year cost me 40% more in $A than I expected as the Australian Dollar fell sharply last year.

BTW, I was perfectly fine with BFPs actions. Not a problem. People need to get things in proportion.
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's a reasonable thing to discuss - good thread - but isn't this an individual threshold issue?

I actually prefer to be charged up front, to be honest, rather than have a "surprise" charge even 3 weeks later. It's more convenient to track purchases. I absolutely loathe preorder systems where you can be surprised up to several months or even years later and then find out your credit cards have expired in the interim. What a pain! (Yes, this has happened to me with at least one company producing ASL stuff.) Doesn't it make more sense just to pay up front and be done with it? The only reason I buy into it is because of the threat of shortages - such as was threatened with Special Issue #1 of Operations for example - and the long wait for reprints of some items, if indeed they get reprinted at all. The fear of missing the boat is tangible, so the consumer jumps on board despite the inconvenience.

Customers form their own relationships with different vendors; each one is unique and based on different feedback gathered from a variety of sources. The biggest part of it is their own comfort level with the various forms of payment and expectations.

It's funny to hear complaints about delivery times; growing up, I think all of us can remember the "expect 6 to 8 weeks for delivery" disclaimers for all the snail-mail orders for just about anything we tried to buy out of the back of a comic book, or using those goofy fold-over Avalon Hill mail order catalogue forms.

I had no problem pre-paying with BFP based on what I knew about them and their products. They stated up front the conditions of sale, and kept people informed of the status of the orders. I am sure we could all argue about the efficiency of their communication model, etc., but again, that's all individual taste, and I was not dissatisfied with my experiences with them. I would prepay again with BFP as the delay was not, for me, onerous.
 
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pward

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Isn't pretty much everything discussed around here a "personal threshold" issue? That's why opinions differ, because people have different thresholds for different things.
 
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