Lost Highway AP-81

Steven Pleva

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Agreed with Scott. I'm nto a big fna of ABS - I think you need to have already played the scenario to know how to bid it well. Not a fan.
How is it worse than playing a scenario that doesn't have ABS? What do you do then? Nobody publishes a scenario they know is imbalanced. However, plenty of unbalanced scenarios escape into the wild. With ABS, we have a better chance to fix the scenario. With regular balance, your choices are limited. For example, take "Last of Their Strength" which is mildly pro-Japanese as published. If you give the Americans the balance, I think the Americans become heavily favored. Players are then forced to invent something if they want a balanced scenario. With ABS, the chances of getting to a balanced scenario are much greater.

Furthermore, if one player has played the scenario while the other has not, then that player has a distinct advantage whether using ABS or not...
 

Matt Book

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How is it worse than playing a scenario that doesn't have ABS? What do you do then? Nobody publishes a scenario they know is imbalanced. However, plenty of unbalanced scenarios escape into the wild. With ABS, we have a better chance to fix the scenario. With regular balance, your choices are limited. For example, take "Last of Their Strength" which is mildly pro-Japanese as published. If you give the Americans the balance, I think the Americans become heavily favored. Players are then forced to invent something if they want a balanced scenario. With ABS, the chances of getting to a balanced scenario are much greater.

Furthermore, if one player has played the scenario while the other has not, then that player has a distinct advantage whether using ABS or not...
Agree, most people who don't like ABS do so because they can't predict the bidding process and think they will get caught in an imbalance due to it by the bidders. ABS can be used as a bidding process, but also as an extended balance means invoving no bidding if both players agree. For example, both players agree beforehand that the use of the American balance heavily favors them in "Last of their Strength" keeping it imbalanced, but maybe see the addition of J2 and A3 combined balances out the OB's and agree both will be used, you now have a scenario you can try that typically would have been cast away.
 
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RobZagnut

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Agreed with Scott. I'm nto a big fna of ABS - I think you need to have already played the scenario to know how to bid it well. Not a fan.
Completely disagree.

Played in a tourney a few weekends ago and we used ABS on 4 scenarios. I had never played any of the four scenarios. I ended up giving some type of balance to get the side I wanted. When you are bidding, it is not a method to balance a scenario, it is a method of bidding for the side you want to play. Already playing the scenario has nothing to do with it.

If you are playing a friendly game, want to play a balanced scenario or are making a recommendation to other players, I don't understand how anyone can think that one level of balance could ever be better than three? Some scenarios need major tweeking to balance them that one level of balance will never fix. Or some need a slight change when the one level is way too much.
 

Fort

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I think Designers who use ABS are relying a little too much on ABS system to make the scenarios balanced. If you haven't played a scenario before how are you going to know what side to bid for?


Scott
1) Maybe an inexperienced designer who has no clue in which order a scenario should be balanced would use ABS as a crutch.

That's not how scenarios are playtested if it's being done correctly.

My method is to first balance the scenario with no thought to balance provision of any sort. After the scenario is balanced to my satisfaction...then I devise and playtest the ABS.

There is no reliance on ABS to do any balancing whatsoever, so your contention is a false conclusion.

2) If you have never played a scenario before how do you know which side you want to play...do you rely on the dice?

I believe that scenario analysis, at first sight, is an important skill set of ASL.

The beauty of ABS is that if you are not very good at scenario analysis, or don't care which side you play....you can make a bid of 'no bid', in which case your opponent gets to play the side he bid for, and you get the balance he's willing to give up to play that side.

ABS=best thing ever devised for FtF ASL....I stand by my claim...and I hope you come over to my side of thought on the subject, or at least give it a try.
 

ironmike1944

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1) Maybe an inexperienced designer who has no clue in which order a scenario should be balanced would use ABS as a crutch.

That's not how scenarios are playtested if it's being done correctly.

My method is to first balance the scenario with no thought to balance provision of any sort. After the scenario is balanced to my satisfaction...then I devise and playtest the ABS.

There is no reliance on ABS to do any balancing whatsoever, so your contention is a false conclusion.

2) If you have never played a scenario before how do you know which side you want to play...do you rely on the dice?

I believe that scenario analysis, at first sight, is an important skill set of ASL.

The beauty of ABS is that if you are not very good at scenario analysis, or don't care which side you play....you can make a bid of 'no bid', in which case your opponent gets to play the side he bid for, and you get the balance he's willing to give up to play that side.

ABS=best thing ever devised for FtF ASL....I stand by my claim...and I hope you come over to my side of thought on the subject, or at least give it a try.
Gary,

I love scenarios that contain the ASL (ABS) system in Place. keep up the good work. I will see you at the Bitter Ender 2012.

Sincerely:
 

Steve E7

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Hey everybody .. see below for our AAR of this scenario.
Steve

Our long exciting game of AP81 Lost Highway is over, with the Americans winning a tight battle that came down to the last turn. Great scenario that’s challenging, but very fun, for the Americans.
This scenario for the American is tricky. All infantry must enter as PRC, and as they know they must push into board 6 quickly, entering on 4aA6 is desirable. I felt part of my force must simply bypass board 4a and push forward to keep on my timeline. Of course the Germans know this as well, and with several AT assets available to them, they can cover this entry hex from the hill. My opponent had his 50L in hex F9. He held his fire as a few vehicles entered, but eventually took, and missed, a shot. No ROF. I was able to pull up a HT next to him, unloaded, CC developed, and the gun fell without harming any US vehicles. Turn one therefore ended with the gun out of commission, and about half of the US force circling the village (I did not enter my entire force).

The next two turns saw the US forces both continuing to bypass the hill village and driving into the grain on Bd 6, and forcing there way right up to the Germans in the village. A PF took out a scout car, but other than that, US casualties were light and two full squads, and an 8-1 leader were taken prisoner. These were loaded into halftracks, and proved to be very valuable EVP.

Board 4a was secure, and there was not a lot of German opposition as I crossed the grain on Bd 6. I figured as much with the hindrances making any AT guns there unlikely. I was hoping to lead with my infantry to scout out his positions, but that proved to be pretty difficult given the pace I had to keep up. Given the German force disposition, I knew that I had to stay left to clear a road net. Clear a path to 46V4, and then see from there which way to go was the plan. This meant there was going to be a fight for building 46W7.

However before I got up there, I ran into a hornets nest as I found the German 75L AT the hard way, it taking out a fully loaded to bear Sherman with riders. It was in 6X5. I found it difficult to approach it then, given where my troops were at, and the walls in the area making it hard on my halftracks to move. Finally my hero and 9-2 led an assault on its position, knocking it out. In the meantime German flakpanzers had moved to the 6Q1 area, hull down behind the walls. They covered the area I had to move to get to board 46. Nice spot for them.

It was then the gyro’s in the Shermans showed their stuff. Keeping in motion, they were able to get some nice rolls vs the Flakpanzers, taking them out. Still, moving through the 6W1 woods line was proving difficult. The German HMG and 9-2 was there. But he was getting out numbered as the Ami’s had a lot of assets, and eventually sheer numbers forced him back to the aforementioned building 46W7. A Priest created a trailbreak in the woods south of that position, and eyed it up. Ami infantry moved up and when a big infantry stack led by the 9-2 moved up into that building, the Germans abandoned it – now gathering most of their force to the right of the road, near the graveyard. I didn’t really have a large force on that side, as I was trying to exit on the left. This proved the hardest part of the game, force balance. If it were not for the fully loaded prisoner laden HT’s, I would not have been able to spare my squads on the ground, and clearing the road net would have been even harder.

I had plenty of vehicles, so I decided to scout for the German 50L and AA gun with a HT. He found them in the brush near the top edge of the map. Again, nice spot. The German Panzer had parked in the top corner edge of the map, 46Q1. Luckily for me, my HT burned when hit, and the hindrances up there really became an issue for the German. Using this, I decided to clear and exit on Y1. My prisoner HT’s made it off the map, a BFF shot took out the Panzer, and the 50L was overrun by yet another HT. American infantry was not able to exit, but did manage to get to the guns, and move into CC with them, putting the final touches on clearing the road. The last issue was the Germans had drove his AC down into board 6 again, right past a Scout Car I had left here to guard against that move. Well I missed and there sat the AC right in the road. Several US troops raced down, my AC driving into his hex to freeze his fire, and finally my 9-2AL led M10 GMC took him out to seal the win.

Very fun game. Lots of options, lots of room for analysis and what ifs. I could talk for a long time about strategy, but the one point I would leave you with is consider taking prisoners, and getting them off the map as EVP. It will ease your burden on using the American infantry to deal with the road net. Other things to consider, where to put your Gyros, keeping track of the German oob and what he has selected, keeping your options open on what road net to clear until the very end, use lots of smoke, and constantly know which 40/9 EVP you are going to exit, and use everybody else to attack the Germans, if he pressures the road you are going to have to wipe out nearly his whole force.

Fun game! Screen shots below. Turn 3 6 and 9 are shown ….
 

Houlie

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Great AAR, Steve. Am playing this now against Jim Taylor. Only in T2. Both Greyhounds KOed, one HT failed its mechanical reliability DR. I messed up thinking the stone building on the hill was a factory. Not a deal breaker, but still costly.
 

AZslim

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I think Designers who use ABS are relying a little too much on ABS system to make the scenarios balanced. If you haven't played a scenario before how are you going to know what side to bid for?


Scott
Gotta disagree here Scott. There is no downside to ABS, really. If you don't like it, don't use it, or just blow off all of the levels but the first ones and it's just like regular balance.
 

jrv

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Gotta disagree here Scott. There is no downside to ABS, really. If you don't like it, don't use it, or just blow off all of the levels but the first ones and it's just like regular balance.
There is a possible downside in that it might make designers and playtesters lazy. They could figure it doesn't matter too much if the scenario as published is balanced because the players will just sort it out later. I don't have any evidence that this is true or false, and I'm going to guess that neither does Scott. Further, one could make the same criticism about regular balance, and then ABS merely creates an "improved crutch" rather than introducing a new moral hazard.

Having proposed the hypothesis, it would be up to Scott (or someone else) either to devise a test or analyze existing data to confirm or deny it. We can but wish this person godspeed in his endeavor.

JR
 

Fort

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There is a possible downside in that it might make designers and playtesters lazy. They could figure it doesn't matter too much if the scenario as published is balanced because the players will just sort it out later. I don't have any evidence that this is true or false, and I'm going to guess that neither does Scott. Further, one could make the same criticism about regular balance, and then ABS merely creates an "improved crutch" rather than introducing a new moral hazard.

Having proposed the hypothesis, it would be up to Scott (or someone else) either to devise a test or analyze existing data to confirm or deny it. We can but wish this person godspeed in his endeavor.

JR
As I am the only person currently using ABS for scenarios (that I know of), I can assure you that won't happen. ABS is only there as an additional enhancement to the scenario. All scenarios I desgin, develop and playtest are done to completion with no thought to ABS at all. Once the scenario is where I want it, then the ABS is devised and playtested.

IMHO, there is no merit to the contention that ABS is an impedient to good scenario design, nor is it a crutch to shore up poor design/playtesting.

I can see no downside to ABS other than as an avenue of personal attack upon someone, disguised as something else. No one is forced to use it, it costs nothing to produce and all the burden of devising and implementing is on the production side of the issue.
 

ironmike1944

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As I am the only person currently using ABS for scenarios (that I know of), I can assure you that won't happen. ABS is only there as an additional enhancement to the scenario. All scenarios I desgin, develop and playtest are done to completion with no thought to ABS at all. Once the scenario is where I want it, then the ABS is devised and playtested.

IMHO, there is no merit to the contention that ABS is an impedient to good scenario design, nor is it a crutch to shore up poor design/playtesting.

I can see no downside to ABS other than as an avenue of personal attack upon someone, disguised as something else. No one is forced to use it, it costs nothing to produce and all the burden of devising and implementing is on the production side of the issue.

Gary,

All these folks complaining about the (ABS) Balance system are a bunch of punks, and a bunch of losers. I like it and that's all I care about! :blab: :blab: :blab:
 

jrv

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As I am the only person currently using ABS for scenarios (that I know of), I can assure you that won't happen. ABS is only there as an additional enhancement to the scenario. All scenarios I desgin, develop and playtest are done to completion with no thought to ABS at all. Once the scenario is where I want it, then the ABS is devised and playtested.

IMHO, there is no merit to the contention that ABS is an impedient to good scenario design, nor is it a crutch to shore up poor design/playtesting.

I can see no downside to ABS other than as an avenue of personal attack upon someone, disguised as something else. No one is forced to use it, it costs nothing to produce and all the burden of devising and implementing is on the production side of the issue.
I never imagined that you were not well-intentioned. I doubt anyone--whether using ABS or not--designs to build an unbalanced scenario. That is different from the hypothesis being false. The bias may be subconscious.

While we could design some complex, statistical experiment to test the hypothesis, it would seem to me--and I'm sure Scott would agree here--that the quickest and easiest way to determine the hypothesis's correctness would be to dissect your brain, as you are the sole designer currently using ABS. Can we count on your cooperation? After all, it is in the name of Science!

JR
 

Fort

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I never imagined that you were not well-intentioned. I doubt anyone--whether using ABS or not--designs to build an unbalanced scenario. That is different from the hypothesis being false. The bias may be subconscious.

While we could design some complex, statistical experiment to test the hypothesis, it would seem to me--and I'm sure Scott would agree here--that the quickest and easiest way to determine the hypothesis's correctness would be to dissect your brain, as you are the sole designer currently using ABS. Can we count on your cooperation? After all, it is in the name of Science!

JR
I find the hypothesis to be meritless and completely false. I don't see any basis for making the accusation other than to somehow impugn another's efforts.

How could ABS intrude on scenario design when it is not even considered until AFTER the scenario playtest is complete?
I don't see it.
 

jrv

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I find the hypothesis to be meritless and completely false. I don't see any basis for making the accusation other than to somehow impugn another's efforts.

How could ABS intrude on scenario design when it is not even considered until AFTER the scenario playtest is complete?
I don't see it.
That's why we use scientific methods. Reasonable people find different things reasonable. Hypotheses are like opinions: everybody has one [EXC: hypotheses are testable].

JR
 

Fort

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That's why we use scientific methods. Reasonable people find different things reasonable. Hypotheses are like opinions: everybody has one [EXC: hypotheses are testable].

JR
By all means, test away.

My hypothesis is that there is nothing to be discovered...other than malicious insinuation, and a petty little mind at work doing petty little things....just so it's perfectly clear, I am NOT talking about you.
 

MajorDomo

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I like ABS; sometimes a scenario has great reply value but favors one side or is perceived to favor one side.

ABS allows tourneys to include that scenario and let the players sort it out. It also allows players to attack or defend if they really want to through bidding.

I would prefer that all scenarios came with ABS.

Rich
 

RobZagnut

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I like ABS; sometimes a scenario has great reply value but favors one side or is perceived to favor one side.

ABS allows tourneys to include that scenario and let the players sort it out. It also allows players to attack or defend if they really want to through bidding.

I would prefer that all scenarios came with ABS.

Rich
Ditto.

I wish Friendly Fire, BFP, Schwerpunkt and others would include ABS for their scenarios. For little extra work the gain for players is immense. Really enjoyed the ABS list that the Albany guys put together for their tournament. They created ABS for many FrF, SP, BFP, DftB, ESG and MMP scenarios.

That's a serious undertaking. It would be much easier if the designer who gets feedback from playtesting and who knows the scenario the best would come up with the 3 levels himself.
 

Bob Miller

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I'm going to be starting CG3 in a few weeks after Noreaster, but if I were to ever play this CG, I would come to a gentlemen's agreement with my opponent that the Axis can't buy OBA until the Russians have a big enough setup or entry area. I would probably also recommend that a German HMG gets replaced by a MMG and possibly remove a 81 Mtr from the initial Axis forces.

Above was a post by Gary Mei from the Festung Budapest thread. He and his opponent were going to "ABS" the CG by some house rules. Fine. Some people like a more official structured balancing as specified by the scenario designer or tournament director (Trezza in his tourny). Fine as well. Just as long as folks play and have fun, great.
 

AZslim

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I never imagined that you were not well-intentioned. I doubt anyone--whether using ABS or not--designs to build an unbalanced scenario. That is different from the hypothesis being false. The bias may be subconscious.

While we could design some complex, statistical experiment to test the hypothesis, it would seem to me--and I'm sure Scott would agree here--that the quickest and easiest way to determine the hypothesis's correctness would be to dissect your brain, as you are the sole designer currently using ABS. Can we count on your cooperation? After all, it is in the name of Science!

JR
Maybe you could, but it would require so many playings I don't think it would be worth it. As far as ABS making designers lazy, I think think the opposite is true. A designer taking the time to create the ABS levels would be more diligent.

If you don't care for ABS, would the existence of it on the card really stop you from playing a scenario without using it?
 
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