jrv
Forum Guru
What of that green stuff is spine and what is hexside? That is the problem. If you can tell which is which, the rule (played with hexspine art as well as hexspine grid blocking) is trivial.
JR
Bocage LOS
- Thread starter Steven Pleva
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JR
Rock SgtDan
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And discouraging to the less experienced. Which is why MMP has to do better than "perry sez" in order to reconcile various bits of the rules and clarify cases.
James Taylor
I love women with brains
This is EXACTLY the problem and the Perry Sez doesn't address this.
As I said, it is an impractical mechanic. Much more practical: Shots directly down the hexspine, blocked. Shots off the hexspine by a c*** hair, open, regardless of depiction.
Extra special... cliff hexsides, and their depictions, DON'T block LOS. Pretty much the exact opposite of this rule. Nice how they dovetail together, eh?
Even more special... even if the wall/hedge/bocage depiction DOESN'T extend to the vertex of its hexside... LOS through that vertex is blocked.
So... its the depiction... except when its not the depiction.
Someone should ask Perry the "How do we know the green stuff is hexside or hexspine?" question.
I can't wait to pull this rule on Trezza!
JT
sdennis
Elder Member
Trezza is a zebra... any rule interpretation depends on the mood he is in at the time and how far he had to run to make the call!I can't wait to pull this rule on Trezza!
JT
Steven Pleva
Elder Member
I get to pull it on him first. I want to be the first to hear the explosion of excretory expletives. I live for those moments...
Steve
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Meh. Bocage really ain't bad. I have myself hesitated long enough. It is not that complicated nor overly prone to difficulties. Similar to PTO, you only need some time to adjust your view on how to "see" the battlefield. And as in PTO, Bocage has its own subset of tactics. It enriches ASL IMHO.
von Marwitz
sdennis
Elder Member
I disagree. My original decision to avoid bocage is decades in the past because I could not find two grognards who could agree on basic principals involving wall advantage, etc. I know that these have effectively been rewritten and I hear from Taylor that most people play the same way now... but this latest one is just another example.
When the basic rules of the "unique" type cause arguments/debates it's not worth my time. Too many other scenarios out there.
James Taylor
I love women with brains
LOL... you haven't played it yet... so you still have plenty to discover. Wait until that out of LOS Panther teleports in the Advancing Fire Phase to in LOS of your Sherman...
Bocage - the best defensive terrain the attacker can find.
JT
jrv
Forum Guru
This is probably my greatest problem with the bocage rules: they don't seem to help the defender enough. They don't seem to achieve that "design for effect" standard. This minor kerfuffle with some corner (literally) cases is not very interesting.
JR
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Trezza
Senior Member
Dennis... a typical clueless coach on the sidelines...who would yell the runner was out of bounds
while running down the opposing sideline...my response.."how did you see that from over here"
Coach response....."he was out of bounds"...typical inane coach response...
The coaches head is THICKER than most prison walls....
while running down the opposing sideline...my response.."how did you see that from over here"
Coach response....."he was out of bounds"...typical inane coach response...
The coaches head is THICKER than most prison walls....
Strangely enough, the Germans considered Bocage poor defensive terrain especially in terms of manpower utilization. Defending Bocage requires high troop density, and results in larger casualty lists--bills that the Germans couldn't afford to pay. The Germans needed squads behind every wall because most of the Germans had no idea what was happening 300 yards away, a problem ASL does not model.
rdw5150
it's just a game
hello!
<SHRUG>
I do not see you method of playing it clean at all. What I see as clean is "if it hits the artwork it is blocked". That (IMHO) is very simple it is black and white.
I do not see the big deal. Matter of fact, I never even thought this would be an issue.
Peace
Roger
rdw5150
it's just a game
Totally disagree...... (which is OK) Bocage is overly complicated. As can be seen, some will not even play it due to BS.
Peace
Roger
rdw5150
it's just a game
James Taylor
I love women with brains
Steven Pleva
Elder Member
I think you are missing the nuance I raised in post #35. In this case it is definitely not black and white...
Steve
Rock SgtDan
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Maybe that gadget for judging bypass and if the string is on both sides of something could include a clear baseplate that has a 6 pointed star. Place the center on the vertex, and the vertex having 3 spokes now has 6 spokes. If its "on" a spoke then whatever is beneficial to the defender.
jrv
Forum Guru
I have always read it was great defensive terrain, but I have never seen anyone critique that methodically. Perhaps it is great defensive terrain because unlike, say the steppes of the Soviet Union, the next defensible position is very close, meaning that the attacker can't break through and make a large territorial gain.
Modeling the German observation would be relatively easy done by putting defenders on No Move counters with some appropriate SSRs.
Are there types of terrain that are efficient in terms of manpower, i.e. where you need fewer men per unit of front? Ok, to answer my own question, mountainous areas are one place because you generally only need to guard the passes. Large forests should be too, for a similar reason: you only need to guard the roads (assuming the enemy has a supply tail). The Normandy region, on the other hand, would be crossed with many roads (even if not all were really great roads), so it would have to guarded at all points. I would also expect that city battles were relatively inefficient in terms of manpower, while still being very slow defensive terrain.
JR
volgaG68
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Funny, I have always found bocage highly advantageous terrain to the defender. I've played dozens and dozens and dozens of bocage scenarios and will gladly take the defense in almost every one. Even with limited defensive resources, a good overall appreciation of the bocage rules and how to apply them tactically can make for a real headache for the attacker.
Look at bocage-enclosed fields as city blocks with the lane either side of each row as a street. Unless the attacker wants shot to ribbons, he must flank each field first, and even a HS with a LMG can make that a multi-break headache. A good defense will find the Attacker trying to flank the flank of the flank, ad nauseum, and find he is never really pushing forward without appreciable casualties. 'Time' is usually the bugaboo of bocage scenarios for the Attacker and an elastic 'drop in/drop out' defense can make it near impossible to a player that has not figured out how to attack in it.
Look at bocage-enclosed fields as city blocks with the lane either side of each row as a street. Unless the attacker wants shot to ribbons, he must flank each field first, and even a HS with a LMG can make that a multi-break headache. A good defense will find the Attacker trying to flank the flank of the flank, ad nauseum, and find he is never really pushing forward without appreciable casualties. 'Time' is usually the bugaboo of bocage scenarios for the Attacker and an elastic 'drop in/drop out' defense can make it near impossible to a player that has not figured out how to attack in it.