Bocage LOS

[clubby]

I'm starting to better understand the quandary by the way the rule book reads. The Bocage depiction in #1, for example, is not actually part of the hexside, it's part of the hexspine, so according to the rules LOS is not specifically blocked unless traced directly down the spine. Interesting.

 

[volgaG68]

In LOS #2, assume this is not bocage (i.e. everything is hedges) and the N3/M4 hexside is clear. Would a shot into M4 get the +1 hedge TEM?

JR

Rightly or wrongly, yes, we would play that it does get the +1 for the hedge in this hypothetical.

 

[Rock SgtDan]

I'm starting to better understand the quandary by the way the rule book reads.

And of course reading has nothing to do with vision. The writers had a sometimes clouded vision, as is the nature of committees.

 

[volgaG68]

If the LOS crosses the Bocage in hex O4, I think #3 is blocked as well.

Klas, strictly my interpretation of the pics is that in LOS#3, the LOS crosses the bocage depiction on the O4-N4 hexside. LOS#1 seems to cross it on the R3-R4 hexside. In #3 it crosses the depiction via a hexspine of the target/viewing hex, in #1 it crosses the depiction before reaching a hexspine of the target/viewing hex.

I accept the argument that bocage is not the perfectly linear type of landscaping found in urban areas, nor does it have the 'general' straight-line attributes that most walls have. It was built straight, but time and nature have made some sections more overgrown than others. IMO, hedges and bocage are scraggly and unkempt in places and one must rely on an eagle-eye LOS to determine when a fire opportunity is open or blocked. IMO, this was also the intent of the B9.1 rule and the design of the 'bocage maps', otherwise for gameplay purposes they would be perfectly squared along the hexspine with no overages whatsoever.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Klas, strictly my interpretation of the pics is that in LOS#3, the LOS crosses the bocage depiction on the O4-N4 hexside. LOS#1 seems to cross it on the R3-R4 hexside. In #3 it crosses the depiction via a hexspine of the target/viewing hex, in #1 it crosses the depiction before reaching a hexspine of the target/viewing hex.

They look the same to me - seems impossible to tell which part of the N3/O4 hexside belongs to N3/O4 and which belongs to O4/N4 when the terrain is close to the vertex.

Also, a unit in hex N4 can only be seen across a bocage hexside if it has WA, and it can't have WA over N4-O4, because that is not a Bocage hexside to begin with, even though there is bocage terrain at the vertex.

 

[rdw5150]

My opponents and I have always played per B9.1; the depiction itself, along with the hexside and vertices, blocks LOS. We would play that #1 and #2 are blocked for this reason (the scrap of depiction crossed is not part of the target/viewing hex), but #3 is clear due to the depiction crossed being part of the target/viewing hex.

This is how I have always played it.

Peace

Roger

 

[rdw5150]

It depends on whether you read "LOS traced along a bocage hexspine" to include artwork or not. I read it as literally straight down the hexspine and no other way. Per B9.1 a hexside includes both the hex grid overlay and the artwork. There is no comparable rule for hexspines that I am aware of. But perhaps that is what was intended.

JR

Hi!

Are you saying that the artwork is not taken into account when looking at bocage, but, it does so with wall/hedge?

Thanks!

Peace

roger

 

[jrv]

Are you saying that the artwork is not taken into account when looking at bocage, but, it does so with wall/hedge?

No. I am saying that the artwork extends a hexside but not a hexspine. A hexspine to my understanding is a line, not a blob. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of a rule that extends the hexspine to include artwork, unlike with B9.1 for a hexside.

JR

 

[rdw5150]

No. I am saying that the artwork extends a hexside but not a hexspine. A hexspine to my understanding is a line, not a blob. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of a rule that extends the hexspine to include artwork, unlike with B9.1 for a hexside.

JR

Ah OK I see what you are saying now. Subtle difference. Still, I have always just played the artwork as it seems consistent with the rules. But I can see what you mean about the hexspine as compared to hexside.

Peace

Roger

 

[jrv]

Ah OK I see what you are saying now. Subtle difference. Still, I have always just played the artwork as it seems consistent with the rules. But I can see what you mean about the hexspine as compared to hexside.

The problem with including artwork in the hexspine is that if the LOS is near the junction, it may not be clear whether the LOS goes through only the hexside artwork or goes through the hexspine artwork too. For wall/hedge, that doesn't matter. If the LOS goes through the hexspine artwork then it also goes through the hexside artwork (assuming there is a wall/hedge hexside), and the TEM applies. (If there is no wall/hedge on the hexside it would matter because the hexspine artwork would be treated as TEM, while in the case where the hexspine is not extended by its artwork, the hex would not get the TEM.)

But in bocage it matters because if you treat hexspine artwork as blocking, then the LOS is blocked. And presumable the hexspine artwork has to be on both sides. Since the change between artwork for hexsides that meet at a vertex is not marked on the map, you have to agree to some method to decide which artwork is from the hexspine and which from the hexside. Perhaps you draw an angle in the middle between the hexspine and the hexside; that would be reasonable I suppose (although not mentioned in the ASLRB). Now you have to put down the thread and decide if you can see hexspine artwork on both sides of the thread using this angle to decide if the artwork is hexside artwork or hexspine artwork.

Or you could just say that all LOSes coming in past the center of the hex formed by the hexspine and hexside toward the hexspine are blocked by bocage regardless of what a thread shows, and those through that center and toward the hexside are not blocked by the bocage.

If you don't include hexspine artwork, then you can tell by inspection whether the LOS is blocked or not. The LOS either goes straight down the hexspine or not.

JR

 

[esprcorn]

Not positive that this is the same question, but here is the answer from a Perry Sez on a similar (or the same) topic...

The Question...

Specifically, is LOS blocked by Bocage artwork if it does NOT cross the actual hexside/hexspine? See attached image... In this case, the LOS goes through the Bocage art work on both ends of the 'string' along the hexspines, but is not actually along the hexspine. Since Bocage LOS is blocked along the hexspine - is this blocked or clear?

I am confused by rule B9.1 A wall represents a stone fence varying in height between one and two meters, and conforms to hexsides rather than the interior of a hex. Any hexside containing a thick green line such as 2T1-U2 is a hedge hexside. The thick terrain depiction, as well as the hexside itself (inclusive of vertices), represents the wall/hedge and will affect any LOS through it, except for obvious breaks in depiction such as 6W9-X9.

So I guess does "will affect any LOS 'through' it" imply that it must cross the actual hexside/hexspine? Or does it mean 'through' the artwork (as in this case) and it will be blocked?

​Thanks!

TView attachment 52380

The Answer from Perry of MMP

Assuming hedge is bocage and that an actual string on an actual board showed hedge art on both sides of the string in a manner similar to the depiction you provide, then the LOS would be blocked.


....Perry
MMP

 

[clubby]

That appears to be the answer to exactly the question asked here.

 

[jrv]

This means that Perry sez the artwork extends the hexspine. So now it's only a matter of deciding whether the artwork being crossed is hexspine artwork or hexside artwork. In the example given that's easy. In general, not so much.

JR

 

[clubby]

This means that Perry sez the artwork extends the hexspine. So now it's only a matter of deciding whether the artwork being crossed is hexspine artwork or hexside artwork. In the example given that's easy. In general, not so much.

JR

I like your original idea about extending the angle out from the third part of the vertex, above, for example, extending the angle from the Z8/Y9 hexside and seeing if the LOS crossed on the hexspine of hexside side of where the extended angle intersects with the exterior depiction of the Bocage. Seems like as good of an idea as any posted and would be relatively easy to eyeball except in the most extreme cases during play.

 

[Steven Pleva]

Okay, taking Perry's answer from the previous post is the attached LOS blocked? The question at hand is how far away from the hexside being crossed does the obstacle have to be hit to be considered blocked? IOW, how do we know whether the obstacle is part of the C6/C7 hexside or the D6/C7 hexside?

A follow up question is why would the answer change for Bocage versus Wall/Hedge? Please give a rules reference.

Steve
View attachment 52381

 

[esprcorn]

Okay, taking Perry's answer from the previous post is the attached LOS blocked? The question at hand is how far away from the hexside being crossed does the obstacle have to be hit to be considered blocked? IOW, how do we know whether the obstacle is part of the C6/C7 hexside or the D6/C7 hexside?

A follow up question is why would the answer change for Bocage versus Wall/Hedge? Please give a rules reference.

Steve
View attachment 52381

Walls and hedges are (whoops) NOT blocked along the hexspine...

 

[J. R. Tracy]

Walls and hedges are (whoops) NOT blocked along the hexspine...

Bocage hexspines do block LOS, however, which leads to GorGor's question.

 

[Steven Pleva]

Walls and hedges are (whoops) NOT blocked along the hexspine...

That's what the rules say. Now, according to the index, Hexspine is defined as "Hexspine (the hexside of an adjacent hex which combines with two hexsides of the subject hex as if forming six spokes of a wheel; hexside E8-E9 is a hexspine of hex F8 and hex D8)". The Perry Sez only works if the definition of Hexspine is expanded to include the Wall/Hedge/Bocage artwork. That leaves us with the ambiguity that I raised in post #35.

Steve

 

[Rock SgtDan]

No. I am saying that the artwork extends a hexside but not a hexspine. A hexspine to my understanding is a line, not a blob. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of a rule that extends the hexspine to include artwork, unlike with B9.1 for a hexside.

JR

"extends" is imo a bad word choice. How about "adds thickness to?"

 

[Rock SgtDan]

The problem with including artwork in the hexspine is that if the LOS is near the junction, it may not be clear whether the LOS goes through only the hexside artwork or goes through the hexspine artwork too. For wall/hedge, that doesn't matter. If the LOS goes through the hexspine artwork then it also goes through the hexside artwork (assuming there is a wall/hedge hexside), and the TEM applies. (If there is no wall/hedge on the hexside it would matter because the hexspine artwork would be treated as TEM, while in the case where the hexspine is not extended by its artwork, the hex would not get the TEM.)

But in bocage it matters because if you treat hexspine artwork as blocking, then the LOS is blocked. And presumable the hexspine artwork has to be on both sides. Since the change between artwork for hexsides that meet at a vertex is not marked on the map, you have to agree to some method to decide which artwork is from the hexspine and which from the hexside. Perhaps you draw an angle in the middle between the hexspine and the hexside; that would be reasonable I suppose (although not mentioned in the ASLRB). Now you have to put down the thread and decide if you can see hexspine artwork on both sides of the thread using this angle to decide if the artwork is hexside artwork or hexspine artwork.

Or you could just say that all LOSes coming in past the center of the hex formed by the hexspine and hexside toward the hexspine are blocked by bocage regardless of what a thread shows, and those through that center and toward the hexside are not blocked by the bocage.

If you don't include hexspine artwork, then you can tell by inspection whether the LOS is blocked or not. The LOS either goes straight down the hexspine or not.

JR

I have to point out that this difference between bocage art and hedge art does nothing to add pleasure to playing the game. Its just another burdensome difference between some rules that ought to be consistant instead of needing a 500 word explanation to look up the differences. Rules by committee...