What was your "moment?"

RobZagnut

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I go in spurts over the evils of the dice. Haven’t played a lot lately over the frustration. Probably why I’ve been drawn to Gloomhaven which uses an excellent card based combat system.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Dice suck.

However, the underlying current of ASL is that anything is possible (however unlikely) at any moment beyond the control of the player. Allowing yourself to let go of that need for control and letting in those crazy, unlikely moments gives us a little whiff of those stories in history books that likely led us to ASL in the first place.

Richie, ASL DICE THROWING CHAMPION
 

Michael Dorosh

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Allowing yourself to let go of that need for control and letting in those crazy, unlikely moments gives us a little whiff of those stories in history books that likely led us to ASL in the first place.
Yes. And kept us here.

But if ASL was only a dice-throwing challenge, like B-17: Queen of the Skies, it wouldn't have been so. The number of repeat winners on tournament results pages indicate it is more than that.
 

Vic Provost

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Very sad to hear. I find that if I'm counting on the dice to save my bacon, I've screwed up somehow. But in the end, it's a game -- one of the greatest ever, to be sure -- but still a game. If he wasn't having fun anymore, then there's not much else left to do but hang up the cardboard boots. Sorry to have seen him go. Do you keep in touch at all?
Joe does to a small extent, last time I saw Kiri was in 2013. Just too bad.

He had a bad habit of throwing dice when they went against him and when he played me I told him to cut it out and he did, especially after I got precision dice.

The dice are what they are, I made peace with them when I got precision dice from Battle School, I could no longer think there was something 'wrong' with them, they rolled what they rolled and you hoped for the best. You win some and lose some and hope for the best. Just enjoy the game and your friends and don't take it too seriously, it is just a game, one we dearly love, Vic.
 

TopT

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You win some and lose some and hope for the best. Just enjoy the game and your friends and don't take it too seriously, it is just a game, one we dearly love, Vic.
Perfect.
 

Khill

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Dice suck.

However, the underlying current of ASL is that anything is possible (however unlikely) at any moment beyond the control of the player. Allowing yourself to let go of that need for control and letting in those crazy, unlikely moments gives us a little whiff of those stories in history books that likely led us to ASL in the first place.

Richie, ASL DICE THROWING CHAMPION
yes, I think of those crazy random dice events as "fate" in conflict

might be use sound tactics but it don't always work

I thought you gave up dice throwing
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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yes, I think of those crazy random dice events as "fate" in conflict

might be use sound tactics but it don't always work

I thought you gave up dice throwing
Actually now I bring like ten dice and switch out the naughty ones. During a fairly recent playtest with Charlee Hamilton, I switched ALL my dice in a single turn. It was hell. No DR below 10. With MARINES. TOTALLY farcical.
 

jrv

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A lot of players object to the randomness of dice. Over the years there have been many, many attempts to limit or eliminate some or all of the random parts of ASL. These often walk into traps where by removing the total randomness they introduce some predictability which can be exploited in a sleazy way. For instance every so often someone will suggest that instead of using dice, use a card deck that has one "two", two "threes", three "fours" and so on. That way after every thirty-six draws all thirty-six possible DR combinations have been used and the results are "guaranteed fair". After thirty-six draws, shuffle the deck and start again. The problem with this mechanic is that after a few draws if you "count cards" you can start making predictions about what is likely to come next. If you have drawn thirty-five times and have not seen the "two", try for a crazy ordnance shot. Whoa! Critical hit! Who saw that coming? Is the "twelve" likely to come up soon? Dig some foxholes to draw it off. The person suggesting it then makes adjustments that make it harder to predict, but the changes either leave a sleaze gap or they approximate using dice.

The more fundamental problem is that I think reducing the randomness runs contrary to the premise of the game. One of the premises of the game (besides that there are certain participants that make a much larger contribution to the battle than their numbers might suggest, i.e. leaders) is that a good commander (aka player) has to be able to balance trying to cause bad things to his opponent, avoiding bad things his opponent tries to cause, and being able to adjust to bad things that happen just 'cause. Sometimes it's a three-way battle, with luck the winner.

There are certain places where the luck wins too easily. Directive Number Three lets both players set up and move a turn with a board between them, then remove the board and roll to see who moves first. I think that the winner of the first move has a great advantage (although I may be wrong, and it's a wonderful scenario anyway). Blazin' Chariots is a scenario where it seems as if when one player gets ahead early it's hard for his opponent to come back. So you have to be careful when designing things because early bad rolls can spoil the fun of the game if they take on too much import in the game. Overall in well-designed scenarios I think the luck factor is part of what makes the game thrilling.

JR
 
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Old Noob

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Had to find a new place to log-in. Virus caused loss of primary place. Mr. Dorosh, I played B-17 back in the day
(being former Air Force) and even got an article published in the General {helped me get some ASL items from the
credit I earned}. While the dice can be random, that randomness recreated a feel for the missions flown by those
brave young men [casualties in 8th Air Force were greater than the USMC!]. You can't just fire a .50-caliber waist
gun and expect a hit every time. Even then when you got a hit, you only had a 1-in-6 chance of shooting down
the Luftwaffe fighter. Slightly better chances with a twin gun turret, but still a matter of randomness.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Had to find a new place to log-in. Virus caused loss of primary place. Mr. Dorosh, I played B-17 back in the day
(being former Air Force) and even got an article published in the General {helped me get some ASL items from the
credit I earned}. While the dice can be random, that randomness recreated a feel for the missions flown by those
brave young men [casualties in 8th Air Force were greater than the USMC!]. You can't just fire a .50-caliber waist
gun and expect a hit every time. Even then when you got a hit, you only had a 1-in-6 chance of shooting down
the Luftwaffe fighter. Slightly better chances with a twin gun turret, but still a matter of randomness.
I played several campaigns back in the day and if I knew your name I could probably confirm I read your article....

Yes, the "feel for the missions" mostly comes from the poor odds of survival, rather than any sense that any decision you make in the game actually matters. ASL is dicey, but you still have plenty of decisions to make and skilled play will tilt the odds in ASL in a player's favour. Not so with B-17. The only real choices you get are which MGs to allocate to attacking fighters. I'm not arguing it's unrealistic. I've just reread COMBAT CREW by Comer and SCREAMING EAGLE by Smith, IIRC a flight engineer from 381BG and the group commander of 384 BG respectively. There is really no other way to simulate what was basically a hauling job. The challenge for the pilots was flying tight formation, something you can't replicate in a board game.
 

holdit

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The designers of AH Napoleon's Battles put in a rule that allows rerolls. Each scenario specifies how many "Free Rolls" each side has. For example, the Waterloo scenario gives each side 8 free rolls. The rule is that any roll can be re-rolled - combat rolls, command rolls, even force arrival rolls, but once a roll is re-rolled once, it can't be re-rolled again - neither side is allowed to re-roll a re-roll, and of course once the free rolls are all used, that's that.

It gives players an option to undo the more WTF! results or attempt a task that might seem impossible otherwise. It works pretty well, I think.
 

The Purist

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<snip>...What I asked was basically at what moment did you realize this was the game you wanted to devote your gaming life, or at least a substantial portion of your gaming life, to. At what moment, basically, WHILE PLAYING THE GAME, did you realize you were addicted to it?...<snip>
I think they are one and the same. I started wargaming in '74 and by '78 was full time PB/PL. Then I bought SL that same year. Once I figured out the rules for the first scenario and started playing Guards Counterattack they had me. Soon PB/PL were being used for CG scenario generators while we waited for COI, COD and GI and all the supporting packages (including rogue scenarios and maps).

I'll admit, by the time GI came out and, like a few others, I had spent all my money on maxing out SL, I was a bit choked when ASL replaced the lot. I resisted getting ASL for a few months until I actually played it... the new addiction took hold immediately, irrevocably. This was even so while I was overseas and away from the game.

As for dice? I try to limit how many times I have to roll 'em. They can't bite you if they sit quietly in the bottom of the tower tray, sleeping.
 
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