witchbottles
Forum Guru
not sure but Jurgen is on the CHMB " Paullus".
part of the Berlin team. now what you do with feathers while rubbing in certain circles is all your business, and we don't really want to share.:laugh:
KRL, Jon H
SS Sturm Platoon
- Thread starter 21Z5M
- Start date
part of the Berlin team. now what you do with feathers while rubbing in certain circles is all your business, and we don't really want to share.:laugh:
KRL, Jon H
ParaMarine
#1 fan of Hungary
Yes I am in agreement with Dlazov. Still it doesn't matter how many 9Morale Tiger crews they have because I'll beat them off eventually.
dlazov
Elder Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
- Messages
- 7,997
- Reaction score
- 1,400
- Location
- Toledo, Ohio
- First name
- Don
- Country
-
Feathers that is just weird man!
dlazov
Elder Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
- Messages
- 7,997
- Reaction score
- 1,400
- Location
- Toledo, Ohio
- First name
- Don
- Country
-
witchbottles
Forum Guru
now THAT was funnyHey if you like beating them off that is your business
:devious:
kynken
Senior Member
Though late to this thread, just my general impressions.
First I think that the 838 is quite over the top, Might be fine for 60's to today's squads, but I feel it was John Hill's attempt at the big bad, SMG toting, grenades in the belt, knife in the boot German bogeyman. It should have been cut down like the US para squad was (847 to 747) when ASL came around.
Second, the SS in theory and at best had the same TO&E as their Heer counterparts.
I will first deal with the ideal '44-'45 SS squad.
Sturm Platoon: For comparison a 10 man Soviet SMG squad, armed only with SMG gets a 628, so a 6-3-8 would be the best fit, maybe a 6-4-8 if armed with the StG 44 rather than the MP-38/40. The standard Panzergrenadier 'rifle' squad, which had 2 LMG and some mix of rifles and SMG should get something like a 5-6-8, though as the SS at that stage often got a better ration of toys (MP-40/StG 44), a 6-6-8 might be possible. Rather than having to have yet another (groan!) clatter of SS counters, I am quite happy to 'smear out the average' with the (effective, AF in '44+) 6-5-8 for '44-'45. So I do not have much of a problem with the existing 6-5-8 squad. AE should be 6-5-8 AE (with handbags or by side note).
For earlier periods.
For '39 to '41, use the 4-6-8 (5-4-8 AE). For all in '39-'40 and for many non-premier SS units afterwards, use the Hungarian LMG/MMG/HMG (I would change B11 to B12 for the non complete riff-raff) as they got large amounts of Czech weapons or even worse at times. Even in '41 when the likes of Das Reich got MG-34, as a motorised infantry division they only had 1 LMG per squad while the squads in 10th Panzer (whom they often fought beside) had 2 per squad.
Starting in '42 the premier divisions (Pz & PzGren) got a 2nd LMG which became standard by '43. So in '42 use the 5-4-8 (6-5-8 as AE) and in '43 the 6-5-8 (no AF for either). The other division get the 4-6-8 as their standard. From mid '44 more German divisions of all sorts got the 2nd squad LMG so sprinkle in 5-4-8 to taste.
That was the ideal. In '39 and possibly '40 allow ERL reduction. Until '41 the SS, though noted for their fanaticism, were often regarded as below par in tactical sense and suffered higher casualties than necessary, at least in the view of their Heer compatriots. The possible exception would be 3rd SS whose commander took an unusual interest in teaching tactical skills (at least by SS standards). From August '44 onwards ERL reduction should be standard for all (almost?) SS as the combination of losses of experienced personnel, reduced training and the influx of drafted Naval, LW and ethnic German (even Italian, Hungarian, Ukrainian, etc) conscripts drastically reduced resilience and overall quality.
Though 'morale' was always very mixed from the average and in some cases quite bad, I would be inclined to leave all with the +1 broken morale, as simply being an SS member made it a really bad idea to stay a quivering puddle when there were enemy troops around.
Leadership. Until '41 (or '42) they should have fewer -2 or -3 leaders than normal. After that, low level leadership does not seem to have been significantly worse than other German units. Even the likes of Sepp Dietrich, who was commonly regarded as being at his limit at a regimental or divisional command level, would have had very positive effects at squad level. 2nd rate units should not be penalised too much as they often had fair numbers of Germans in command, but 3rd rate units would a different matter. I would be wary of using the 'Allied' rule, as treating commands as debating points or suggestions, which might happen between real allied national units, would usually tend to be fatal in the SS.
So far I have dealt with the ideal and general view.
I would fairly much agree with Psycho's OAF repost. I might upgrade 7th SS a notch. 6th SS were almost useless in '41 but steadily improved until they were brought into action in Nordwind (companion to Wacht am Rhein) where they were effectively on par with the likes of 1st and 2nd SS. For all except the premier stick to 4-6-8 with increasing percentage (25%-80%) of 4-4-7 as you go down the list with some 5-4-8 sprinkled in in '44+ with maybe a few 6-5-8 AE (5-4-8 AE before '44).
As ASL is, with regard to infantry, an impressionistic game and only the relative combat values have any historical validity, I would not worry too much about fixed squad type quotas within any one particular band (the Good, the Bad and the Ugly). 468/548/658 (depending upon period) for the Good, 2/3 468 & 1/3 447 for the Bad and 1/5 468 & 4/5 447 for the Ugly with a few sprinkles of 548/658 as noted above would be my suggestion. Allow ERL reduction to fine tune the mix as noted above for the Good and Bad and at any time period for the Ugly.
First I think that the 838 is quite over the top, Might be fine for 60's to today's squads, but I feel it was John Hill's attempt at the big bad, SMG toting, grenades in the belt, knife in the boot German bogeyman. It should have been cut down like the US para squad was (847 to 747) when ASL came around.
Second, the SS in theory and at best had the same TO&E as their Heer counterparts.
I will first deal with the ideal '44-'45 SS squad.
Sturm Platoon: For comparison a 10 man Soviet SMG squad, armed only with SMG gets a 628, so a 6-3-8 would be the best fit, maybe a 6-4-8 if armed with the StG 44 rather than the MP-38/40. The standard Panzergrenadier 'rifle' squad, which had 2 LMG and some mix of rifles and SMG should get something like a 5-6-8, though as the SS at that stage often got a better ration of toys (MP-40/StG 44), a 6-6-8 might be possible. Rather than having to have yet another (groan!) clatter of SS counters, I am quite happy to 'smear out the average' with the (effective, AF in '44+) 6-5-8 for '44-'45. So I do not have much of a problem with the existing 6-5-8 squad. AE should be 6-5-8 AE (with handbags or by side note).
For earlier periods.
For '39 to '41, use the 4-6-8 (5-4-8 AE). For all in '39-'40 and for many non-premier SS units afterwards, use the Hungarian LMG/MMG/HMG (I would change B11 to B12 for the non complete riff-raff) as they got large amounts of Czech weapons or even worse at times. Even in '41 when the likes of Das Reich got MG-34, as a motorised infantry division they only had 1 LMG per squad while the squads in 10th Panzer (whom they often fought beside) had 2 per squad.
Starting in '42 the premier divisions (Pz & PzGren) got a 2nd LMG which became standard by '43. So in '42 use the 5-4-8 (6-5-8 as AE) and in '43 the 6-5-8 (no AF for either). The other division get the 4-6-8 as their standard. From mid '44 more German divisions of all sorts got the 2nd squad LMG so sprinkle in 5-4-8 to taste.
That was the ideal. In '39 and possibly '40 allow ERL reduction. Until '41 the SS, though noted for their fanaticism, were often regarded as below par in tactical sense and suffered higher casualties than necessary, at least in the view of their Heer compatriots. The possible exception would be 3rd SS whose commander took an unusual interest in teaching tactical skills (at least by SS standards). From August '44 onwards ERL reduction should be standard for all (almost?) SS as the combination of losses of experienced personnel, reduced training and the influx of drafted Naval, LW and ethnic German (even Italian, Hungarian, Ukrainian, etc) conscripts drastically reduced resilience and overall quality.
Though 'morale' was always very mixed from the average and in some cases quite bad, I would be inclined to leave all with the +1 broken morale, as simply being an SS member made it a really bad idea to stay a quivering puddle when there were enemy troops around.
Leadership. Until '41 (or '42) they should have fewer -2 or -3 leaders than normal. After that, low level leadership does not seem to have been significantly worse than other German units. Even the likes of Sepp Dietrich, who was commonly regarded as being at his limit at a regimental or divisional command level, would have had very positive effects at squad level. 2nd rate units should not be penalised too much as they often had fair numbers of Germans in command, but 3rd rate units would a different matter. I would be wary of using the 'Allied' rule, as treating commands as debating points or suggestions, which might happen between real allied national units, would usually tend to be fatal in the SS.
So far I have dealt with the ideal and general view.
I would fairly much agree with Psycho's OAF repost. I might upgrade 7th SS a notch. 6th SS were almost useless in '41 but steadily improved until they were brought into action in Nordwind (companion to Wacht am Rhein) where they were effectively on par with the likes of 1st and 2nd SS. For all except the premier stick to 4-6-8 with increasing percentage (25%-80%) of 4-4-7 as you go down the list with some 5-4-8 sprinkled in in '44+ with maybe a few 6-5-8 AE (5-4-8 AE before '44).
As ASL is, with regard to infantry, an impressionistic game and only the relative combat values have any historical validity, I would not worry too much about fixed squad type quotas within any one particular band (the Good, the Bad and the Ugly). 468/548/658 (depending upon period) for the Good, 2/3 468 & 1/3 447 for the Bad and 1/5 468 & 4/5 447 for the Ugly with a few sprinkles of 548/658 as noted above would be my suggestion. Allow ERL reduction to fine tune the mix as noted above for the Good and Bad and at any time period for the Ugly.
Cult.44
Senior Member
I generally agree but sometimes the 838 seems appropriate or produces the right feel for an action. For example, it was probably pretty intimidating for Allied Minor troops early in the war to watch a seemingly hyper-competent pioneer company methodically undermine their defensive positions. That extra FP would represent a fear factor in those situations.
Also, I've been working on a late war scenario where the Germans are trying to oust American 747s from a village of mostly stone buildings. To help with the task the Germans have a small number of assault engineers. But the 548s didn't feel right because of their disadvantage going into close combat against the 747s. In this case, the mix of 838s is relatively small -- 3 squads out of mix of 16 for the Germans -- so they don't overwhelm the situation.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
sounds quite reasonable. Early war, I would think a 6-4-8 finn counter would do well for approximating an elite trained force, say the Brandenburgers in Poland. Have them ELR on a 4 to a 5-4-8 and then a 4-4-7.
One of the major weaknesses with the Ss "countermix" - then corrected in both AbtF and FB was the lack of ELR'ing units. These units NEED to be subject to unit replacement rules in almost every environment. A TINY fraction may have been able to sustain battle casualties at the higher rates and not lose unit battlefield effectiveness overall; but we are then reverting to VERY highly specialized units, such as Skorzeny's Kommando at Gran Sasso; or during the kidnapping of Horthy. Or the men of the 6th SS Nord, backed by the fire from two Flak Towers just east of the Reichskanzei who held off an entire Russian Shock Army until the night of the 30th of April, 1945. ( nothing to lose , so they fought with grim determination of knowing they faced death in every possible case.); perhaps the last 600 +/- men of the "De Ruyter" Regiment at Narva, surrounded and cut off - who fought for 11 days until being overrun by 3 Soviet divisions. ( only 2 of those men ever came home from Russia.)
i.e. very specialized troops who would not crack under extreme combat pressures and massive casualty rates in excess of 90%.
The rest of the Waffen - SS the best of the bunch ELRs of 4 - the worst, ELRs of 0.
KRL, jon H
I agree that for late war Heer AE, the 548 are a bit wimpy, so the use of SSR modified old 648 blue Finns would be better. For those who have it, HoB's SF II has a counter sheet with Küstenjager 6[SUP]2[/SUP]-4-8 squads which would do the job very nicely. For mid to late war SS AE, the standard 658, with a side note with IDs (no handbag wielding 658s yet) would be appropriate. While German AE might have gone into battle loaded with extra smoke grenades, DCs and FTs, their infantry weapon mix were little different from the plain infantry in the same regiment or division.
I will have to respectfully disagree with witchbottles about ERL replacement/underlined morale. If that were the case then you should see very few ERL 5/underlined morale units in ASL. Definitely almost few AE should merit them. Of the British only 1st AB at Arnhem and the mix at PB should have underlined morale. Would all the US AB qualify?
As this is a squad/HS level game, single casualties in a squad are ignored but only cumulatively represented, if at all, by the full or partial loss of squads, maybe in a different part of the board. What I believe an underlined morale means is not that every last man is a total fanatic but that the standard of the members of the squad is both high and fairly even. The loss (WIA or KIA) of one or two does not cause a reduction of the average quality of that squad, temporary shock/disruption (IE break) maybe. With normal squads which would be a mix of good, mediocre and bad quality the loss/wounding of an individual has a chance of removing a key person who holds that squad together, resulting in a noticeable drop in quality. It is the combination of quality and homogeneity that merits underlined morale rather than die-to-the-last-man mentality, though that can contribute. That combination may come from extraordinary training, long battle experience, unit confidence or ideological loyalty. It can still break and rout but when it recovers its nerve it is not noticeably weakened.
That is why I have no problem with no ERL replacement for 1st and 2nd line SS units from '40 until about July '44. Even when their trade craft was not up to scratch in '40 and they took unnecessary casualties, they usually persisted unless higher command command levels called it off.
I will have to respectfully disagree with witchbottles about ERL replacement/underlined morale. If that were the case then you should see very few ERL 5/underlined morale units in ASL. Definitely almost few AE should merit them. Of the British only 1st AB at Arnhem and the mix at PB should have underlined morale. Would all the US AB qualify?
As this is a squad/HS level game, single casualties in a squad are ignored but only cumulatively represented, if at all, by the full or partial loss of squads, maybe in a different part of the board. What I believe an underlined morale means is not that every last man is a total fanatic but that the standard of the members of the squad is both high and fairly even. The loss (WIA or KIA) of one or two does not cause a reduction of the average quality of that squad, temporary shock/disruption (IE break) maybe. With normal squads which would be a mix of good, mediocre and bad quality the loss/wounding of an individual has a chance of removing a key person who holds that squad together, resulting in a noticeable drop in quality. It is the combination of quality and homogeneity that merits underlined morale rather than die-to-the-last-man mentality, though that can contribute. That combination may come from extraordinary training, long battle experience, unit confidence or ideological loyalty. It can still break and rout but when it recovers its nerve it is not noticeably weakened.
That is why I have no problem with no ERL replacement for 1st and 2nd line SS units from '40 until about July '44. Even when their trade craft was not up to scratch in '40 and they took unnecessary casualties, they usually persisted unless higher command command levels called it off.
Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
Awesome info from Witchbottles and Paul.
That was what was available as SS then , that's why.
Are you making reference what was available for KGP?
witchbottles
Forum Guru
yes he was.
in 1994 to 1996 - AbtF did not yet exist, well it existed in 1994 as HoB's GSTK; but this was not by any means " official" and even back then TAHGC had a policy of TPP counters would not be used in any " official" submission.
the ASLRB as it existed in 1996 had the 658 that ELRd to a 4-4-7 non - SS unit. and thence to a 4-3-6 non SS unit ( ie no broken ML bonus, no spray or assault fire.)
Frankly, it was rather well considered overall as a counter in the original rendition, but to work as it would have historically in 44-45 would have required designers to use ELRs of 0,1,2 rather than always depicting them at ELR 5. This way, the unit may start out a bogeyman, but once under any real casualties from enemy fire, it quickly degrades to a rabble. In that context, the idea worked fairly well. Now I agree, it very much needed expansion, and was happy to see AbtF do that. ( and FB carry it further even still) But AbtF did not happen until 3 years later.
KRL, Jon H
witchbottles
Forum Guru
not sure there. I'd do the spearhead LAH and das Reich guys in Wacht Am Rhein as 6-5-8s not many, say one sqd in 5 or so. the majority an even division of 548s and 467s. a fair sprinkling of all the rest and all the follow up companies would be an even mix of 447s and 436s.
since with FB we have a full chart for ELRing SS units; it is quite easy. By 16 Dec 44, I'd have put the LAH lead off company at 2 x 6-5-8(9); 3 x 5-4-8(9); 4 x 4-6-7(8); 3 x 4-4-7(7). This is only for the lead unit. And an ELR of 4 for the 8 ML units, 2 for the 7 ML units.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
In a previous thread here on GS forums back about a year ago, the almighty and powerful Perry Cocke already declared that MMP is not going to touch KGP for re-doing.
KRL, Jon H
xenovin
Elder Member
I'm sure CH will.....