SS Sturm Platoon
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Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
jrv
Forum Guru
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tactics/Formations/rifle_platoon.htm
So perhaps two 5-4-8 & one 4-6-8.
JR
Cult.44
Senior Member
I agree with Mr. Kenneally - 5-4-8s. I'd only use 8-3-8s to represent combat engineers.
I don't think "sturm" is a reference to SS here but to "submachinegun" platoon.
I don't think "sturm" is a reference to SS here but to "submachinegun" platoon.
Bryan Holtby
Senior Member
In Dec 44 most of the SS troops would be 548's, and then only in the handful of elite divisions. Most SS divisions were not front line quality troops, being armed primarily with captured weapons and vehicles.
It could be argued that the 658's should only be used in 43 and early 44, by then most of the elite units had been partially/mostly wiped out and reconstituted by combing soldiers out of existing army units in addition to raw recruits.
It could be argued that the 658's should only be used in 43 and early 44, by then most of the elite units had been partially/mostly wiped out and reconstituted by combing soldiers out of existing army units in addition to raw recruits.
Bryan Holtby
Senior Member
Thats why I said it could be argued 
Ive never been a fan of the standard company...... 12 x whatever squad type seems a little generic to me...... and have always thought that it should be a mixture of squads. For example, in the case of late 44 SS, perhaps
2 x 658, 5 x 548, 2 x 468, 2 x 447. This could represent a multitude of issues that come up in a combat unit that has been in the line for a while. 'Invisible' leader quality where the 658 has a veteran squad leader and the 447 has a rookie, a platoon that has been divided into assault and support sections, they could be lacking sufficient inherent LMG's or low on ammo for those weapons, under strength squads or perhaps squads with lightly wounded personnel who are less than eager to be shot at again.
Ive never been a fan of the standard company...... 12 x whatever squad type seems a little generic to me...... and have always thought that it should be a mixture of squads. For example, in the case of late 44 SS, perhaps
2 x 658, 5 x 548, 2 x 468, 2 x 447. This could represent a multitude of issues that come up in a combat unit that has been in the line for a while. 'Invisible' leader quality where the 658 has a veteran squad leader and the 447 has a rookie, a platoon that has been divided into assault and support sections, they could be lacking sufficient inherent LMG's or low on ammo for those weapons, under strength squads or perhaps squads with lightly wounded personnel who are less than eager to be shot at again.
Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
Because AH was not going to let the "Evil American" (6-6-6) squads just decimate the "Glorious" SS.......
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
That is a somewhat daring general statement.
While early war SS had sometimes even inferior equipment compared to Wehrmacht, later especially the German SS-formations (not Volksdeutsche) were more lavishly equipped than most Wehrmacht units. Early war through mid-war SS units were composed of volunteers, while late war SS had an increasing influx of non-volunteer personnel or Volksdeutsche from various mostly eastern countries.
If you talk about the first line SS formations (Totenkopf, Das Reich, Wiking, etc.) these did break later and were more ready to take casualties except for the hardiest Wehrmacht units (and the Heer was much larger than the SS even late in the war). The second line SS formations (Prinz Eugen etc.) are a different matter.
I am referring to Kampfkraft and am not touching any moral or ideological factors.
von Marwitz
ParaMarine
#1 fan of Hungary
With two parallel militaries in the same country, they're going to do a lot of things differently. I'm also not interested in any political or moral factors. I do know that the SS had their own seperate officer school, their premier commanders in the late war had all come from the ranks, they abolished a lot of the ancient Prussian traditions of courtesy and the class system, they used a parachute regiment as their penal group (!), and they fought on when the Heer saw the handwriting on the wall. I do know what they did to our prisoners in the Ardennes, but Germans have memories too (after Normandy).
Anyway, a late war first line unit should have inherent MP 44's and various other weapons. 8-3-8s are for exclusively automatic weapon armed groups like Sturmpioneer.
Anyway, a late war first line unit should have inherent MP 44's and various other weapons. 8-3-8s are for exclusively automatic weapon armed groups like Sturmpioneer.
What was a Sturm Plt armed with for individual weapons? What made them different from an SS "rifle" Plt?
German Army
Authorized Strength
Panzer Grenadier Company
(freie Gliederung)
1 November 1944
Staff
1 Company Commander (officer)
1 submachine gun
1 Hauptfeldwebel (NCO
1 pistol
1 Weapons NCO
1 pistol
1 Company Troop Leader (Battle Scribe) (NCO)
1 submachine gun
1 Sharpshooter Leader (NCO)
1 1 rifle
1 Corpsman (NCO)
1 pistol
3 Messengers
3 rifles
3 Sharpshooters
3 rifles
2 Motorcycle Messengers
2 rifles, 2 motorcycles with sidecars
1 Driver
1 rifle & 1 light four seat passenger vehicle (volkswagen)
Portable Radio Troop:
1 Troop Leader (NCO)
1 rifle
1 Radio Operator
1 rifle
Tank Destroyer Group:
1 Troop Leader (NCO)
1 rifle & 1 submachine gun
6 Anti-Tank Gunners
3 pistols, 3 rifles, 3 88mm R Panzerbüchse 54 Rocket
launchers
1st (Sturm-) Platoon:
1 Platoon Leader (officer)
1 submachine gun
2 Messengers
2 rifles
1 Corpsman
1 pistol
3 Groups:
3 Group Leaders (NCOs)
3 submachine guns
24 Riflemen
24 submachine guns
2nd Platoon:
1 Platoon Leader (officer)
1 submachine gun
2 Messengers
2 rifles
The 1st Plt is armed with submachine guns, So would it be 8-3-8?
German Army
Authorized Strength
Panzer Grenadier Company
(freie Gliederung)
1 November 1944
Staff
1 Company Commander (officer)
1 submachine gun
1 Hauptfeldwebel (NCO
1 pistol
1 Weapons NCO
1 pistol
1 Company Troop Leader (Battle Scribe) (NCO)
1 submachine gun
1 Sharpshooter Leader (NCO)
1 1 rifle
1 Corpsman (NCO)
1 pistol
3 Messengers
3 rifles
3 Sharpshooters
3 rifles
2 Motorcycle Messengers
2 rifles, 2 motorcycles with sidecars
1 Driver
1 rifle & 1 light four seat passenger vehicle (volkswagen)
Portable Radio Troop:
1 Troop Leader (NCO)
1 rifle
1 Radio Operator
1 rifle
Tank Destroyer Group:
1 Troop Leader (NCO)
1 rifle & 1 submachine gun
6 Anti-Tank Gunners
3 pistols, 3 rifles, 3 88mm R Panzerbüchse 54 Rocket
launchers
1st (Sturm-) Platoon:
1 Platoon Leader (officer)
1 submachine gun
2 Messengers
2 rifles
1 Corpsman
1 pistol
3 Groups:
3 Group Leaders (NCOs)
3 submachine guns
24 Riflemen
24 submachine guns
2nd Platoon:
1 Platoon Leader (officer)
1 submachine gun
2 Messengers
2 rifles
The 1st Plt is armed with submachine guns, So would it be 8-3-8?
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witchbottles
Forum Guru
Not sure I'd agree here completely, seems a bit generalized.
1. there were 3 separate departments of the Waffen - SS the first consisted of the standing Panzer and PG Divisions of the Waffen SS, these being Divisions 1-12. The rest were "friewillingen" volunteer ( term used loosely) "divisions -der -waffen - ss" and finally the last volunteer ( read this one conscripted) "divisions-der-ss".
2. Commanders , especially unit commanders , in the 12 motorized / armored divisions were not raised up from the ranks. They were appointed for their political reliability. The Sub - unit and subordinate commanders within each organization were specially selected candidates from the Bad Tolz schule in Bavaria, and by Jan 1945, the newer facility in Stettin.
3. Commanders at all levels in the "divisions - der- waffen - ss" friewillingen units were chosen and assigned for political reliability, and were and remained in excess of 90% german - born SS Officers from either of the schules.
4. Unit Commanders for the "divisions - der - ss" ( conscripted) volunteer units were SS Officers who had been removed from command for incompetence in the field of battle, and those who had been rounded up from their cushy Allegemeine - SS desk jobs and thrust into combat situations.
Very few commanders of SS units prior to March of 1945 were "risen up through the ranks". Don't take DeGrelle too seriously when you read him, or listen to his speeches. The man was a fanatical Nazi and a war criminal. Records indicate that there is considerable evidence he attained a position of command via conspiracy and murder.
Notable exceptions:
Freikorps Danmark - refused to have German officers lead their men below Regimental - level. When Himmler finally insisted on subordinate German commanders, they pulled out of the Waffen - SS and returned to Denmark for garrison duties en masse.
Handschar Division - the Muslim troops refused to follow non - muslim commanders. Since they only made war on their non - muslim neighboring civilians, it is not at all surprising.
I won't list DeGrelle's command. The Walloniens were not under his command until just before their evacuation and return to Stettin.
Further, one should remember that almost every unit of the Waffen - SS consisted of an even sprinkling of experienced combat soldiers, new recruited volunteers with little or no combat experience, and conscripted levees sent there unwillingly or deceptively. Any ASL depiction of such units should include a smattering of all levels. The officer ranks should be noticeably bereft of more than a handful of officers exhibiting a Leadership DRM in excess of -1. ( a Waffen - SS 10-2 should be an exceedingly rare officer. Something along the lines of Carius, who I'd still depict as a 9-2 AL, or Felix Steiner at the Panther Line in Narva, or just south of Lake Balaton, Hungary, 1945.)
Last, many, many units of the HEER fought on even after Seelow Heights and the breakthroughs of April 1945. Such fanaticism was not only limited to the Waffen SS units.
KRL, jon H
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witchbottles
Forum Guru
Sub - machine Gun ie the MP-38 / 40 series. ie 5-4-8s.
Sturmgewehr - assault rifles - ie the 6-5-8s.
8-3-8s should represent very specialized storm detachments, combat engineers, specialized bunker killing teams, etc.
Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
Keith,
Send me an email of the specific unit(s) you are looking at to create for ASL.
Also, I found most of the reading materials I was looking for, so I will send you and Jon an email about what I have in mind.
Looking at late November, Early December 1944 along the northern regions of the Huertgen Wald.....
ParaMarine
#1 fan of Hungary
I'm basing my understanding more on Michael Reynolds than anyone. Reading his detailed histories, it is clear that commanders at all levels in the premier SS divisions were brought through the ranks and were combat experienced. For the multitude of foreign divisions, the Allgemeine, and whatnot, I think we all know they they are rarely (if ever) in ASL.
I don't think the Heer was lacking in determination or a certain amount of fanaticism, but it's an accurate generalization to say that the SS was less likely to surrender and to give their last breath for Adolph Hitler.
I don't think the Heer was lacking in determination or a certain amount of fanaticism, but it's an accurate generalization to say that the SS was less likely to surrender and to give their last breath for Adolph Hitler.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
hmmmm...
SS-VT - Commanded by Lt Gen Hausser - a political appointment
1 LSSAH - commanded by:
Sepp Dietrich - political appointment
Teodor Wisch - a "up through the Waffen - SS ranks general
Wilhelm Mohnke - a transfer from another Waffen - SS unit to fill position - command positions held in Poland , France and Yugoslavia, wounded and invalided to a training / replacement centre command until late 1943 when Himmler needed a Waffen - SS general to take command of the ( shaky) 12th - SS - HJ.
A fanatical Nazi to the end in Berlin.
Otto Kumm - a political appointment - but he did previously command SS Reg't "germania" - those foreign volunteers that are rarely in ASL. ( Which is another topic)
and so on ...... the list gets worse by comparison in combat and tactical capabilities as the unit number designators get higher.
As for the "foreign volunteers" in ASL.
AbtF has some "Landstorm Nederland"
LCPs entire 7th SS Prinz Eugen scen Pack
HoB put the Charlemagne unit on the ASL map in B:RV
CH added in the Nordland and the Nederlanders of the 23rd and 34th divisions - der - SS in B: FD and TL2.
MMP is making a Narva 44 module. I mean come on... who do you think FOUGHT in the Narva battles?
CH's Panther Line / TTTF depicts many formations of the III Germanic Corps in the Narva / Kurland retreat.
FrF has done many scens on these " foreign volunteers" - and MMP published one in BoF #7.
nope, the foreign volunteers are represented in ASL, and continue to be represented in ASL by new designs. It is one of the best areas to explore the ideas of waffen SS troops that are NOT being depicted as "supermen".
and lest one forget, the "foreign volunteers" ( again term used loosely) staffed more than 90% of the "regular" waffen - SS units in Wiking, Nord, Prinz Eugen, Florian Geyer, and Nordland.
KRL, Jon H
SS-VT - Commanded by Lt Gen Hausser - a political appointment
1 LSSAH - commanded by:
Sepp Dietrich - political appointment
Teodor Wisch - a "up through the Waffen - SS ranks general
Wilhelm Mohnke - a transfer from another Waffen - SS unit to fill position - command positions held in Poland , France and Yugoslavia, wounded and invalided to a training / replacement centre command until late 1943 when Himmler needed a Waffen - SS general to take command of the ( shaky) 12th - SS - HJ.
A fanatical Nazi to the end in Berlin.
Otto Kumm - a political appointment - but he did previously command SS Reg't "germania" - those foreign volunteers that are rarely in ASL. ( Which is another topic)
and so on ...... the list gets worse by comparison in combat and tactical capabilities as the unit number designators get higher.
As for the "foreign volunteers" in ASL.
AbtF has some "Landstorm Nederland"
LCPs entire 7th SS Prinz Eugen scen Pack
HoB put the Charlemagne unit on the ASL map in B:RV
CH added in the Nordland and the Nederlanders of the 23rd and 34th divisions - der - SS in B: FD and TL2.
MMP is making a Narva 44 module. I mean come on... who do you think FOUGHT in the Narva battles?
CH's Panther Line / TTTF depicts many formations of the III Germanic Corps in the Narva / Kurland retreat.
FrF has done many scens on these " foreign volunteers" - and MMP published one in BoF #7.
nope, the foreign volunteers are represented in ASL, and continue to be represented in ASL by new designs. It is one of the best areas to explore the ideas of waffen SS troops that are NOT being depicted as "supermen".
and lest one forget, the "foreign volunteers" ( again term used loosely) staffed more than 90% of the "regular" waffen - SS units in Wiking, Nord, Prinz Eugen, Florian Geyer, and Nordland.
KRL, Jon H
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We need some more Bulgarians in scenarios. Was there not a Turkish Division in Axis service? (I got a counter for that from my old Fire in the East/Scorched Earth game). Wonder if there was an Irish regiment, we need more Soviet Guards scenarios...with Guard counters (white font on Red, lol)...
witchbottles
Forum Guru
some of the 31st Friewilligen-grenadier-division-der-SS could fit the bill . Batschkas from the Hungarian / Serbian regions. Most Bulgarians chose not to "cooperate" so willingly with the Nuremburg Race Laws, or the Allegemeine SS or the RHSA departments, or the SS-SD "recruiters" that traveled the Reich occupied and allied territories from 1941 on looking for "volunteers". so you'll be hard pressed to find SS auxiliaries of Bulgars.
you could also get some Turks from the Turkestan-Legion-der-SS or the Ostturkische-waffenverband-der-SS.
Irish...... nope all Irish volunteers would have been either inducted into the Abwehr, the SS-SD, or if northern Irish, the Britisches Friekorps.
Note that most of the Irish "volunteers" were declared criminals by Scotland Yard and MI-5, and hunted down. For those that joined the Friekorps, ( recruited exclusively from PoW camsp) a court martial and often a hanging awaited them upon Germany's surrender and their extradition.
KRL, Jon H