SS Sturm Platoon

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
5th SS Wiking comes to mind about Foriegn units and how well they fought.
and the 6th Nord, and most of the III Germanic Korps under Steiner in 44.

in case we forget, Florian Geyer was modeled in the recent FB HASL as well, and the Maria Teresia.

again - foreign volunteers in Waffen - SS service.



KRl, jon H
 

Kevin Kenneally

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
18,066
Reaction score
888
Location
Central Texas USA.
Country
llUnited States
Keith,

Got your info in the email.

Might think about the suggestion I sent for that particular unit.

Jon,

The Degrelle Legion (Named from the Commander), do you have any info on this unit in the SS?
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,445
Reaction score
1,509
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
Here's SS suggestions from OAF:

From On All Fronts issues #73 & 76. Suggested treatment of Waffen SS units:

Elite = 658s
1st Leibstandarte
2nd Das Reich
3rd Totenkopf
5th Wiking
9th Hohenstaufen
10th Frundsberg
12th Hitler Jugend

1st Line = 468s
6th Nord
8th Florian Geyer
11th Nordland
15th Latvian 1
16th Reichsfuhrer SS
17th Gotz von Berlichingen
18th Horst Wessel
19th Latvian 2
20th Estonian 1
22nd Maria Theresia
23rd Nederland
27th Langemarck
28th Wallonien
33rd Charlemagne
36th Dirlewanger
38th Nibelungen

2nd Line = 548s
4th Polizei
7th Prinz Eugen
13th Handschar
14th Ukranian 1
25th Hunyadi
26th Hungaria (or Gombos)
31st Bohmen Mahren (or Batschka)
32nd 30 Januar
34th Landstorm Nederland
37th Lutzow

Green = 538s (Finn counters)
21st Skanderbeg
23rd Kama
24th Karstjager
29th Russian 1 (Kaminski)
29th Italian 1
30th White Russian 1
33rd Hungarian 3
35th Polizei Grenadier


658 Elite
ELR 4 for 1939/40 & 45
ELR 5 for 1941-44

468 1st Line
ELR 3 for 1939/40 & 45
ELR 4 for 1941-44

548 2nd Line
ELR 2 for 1939-41 & 45
ELR 3 for 1942-44

538 Green
ELR 2 for 1944-45


Issue 76 notes from another reader:

Assault fire should only apply to 658s in 1944-45 (StG44s)
Maybe no 658s prior to 1944 (perhaps 1943)
Elite should be 468s until 1944 when 658s show up
1st Line should be 468s until 1944 when change to 648s (might be typo)
2nd Line smoke available might be reduced to 1
Green units should be considered Inexp for HOB drm
Also consider many SS non German for Leader creation
Only Elite and 1st Line should retain broken morale 9
Elite should retain underscored morale even when ELR 4

His suggested changes to divisional chart:
6th Nord should be 2nd Line in 1941 (or ELR 3 as lesser penalty)
7th PrEg should be Green in 1945 (21st SS replacements)
13th Hnd should be Green (mutiny and desertions)
17th GvB should be ELR 3 in Oct 1944 (many replacements)
34th LdN should be 1st Line
36th Drl should be Green (criminals)

I seem to remember an article about treating many of the later divisions (which did not actually reach anywhere near XX strength) as Axis Minor troops. If the XX was composed of Balkan/Slavic mostly use the Axis Minor counters. There is a scenario that used Axis Minors for Ukrainian SS in Warsaw 1944 IIRC.
 

21Z5M

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
449
Reaction score
241
Location
E Ma
Country
llUnited States
does anyone know what a regular SS rifle platoon would have carried for an individual weapon compared to a SS Sturm platoon?
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
does anyone know what a regular SS rifle platoon would have carried for an individual weapon compared to a SS Sturm platoon?
it would depend on :

A. unit itself by designation
B. Date being examined
C. nationality / origin of the unit


KRL, jon H
 

ParaMarine

#1 fan of Hungary
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
859
Reaction score
233
Location
Board 77
First name
Big Rick
Country
llUnited States
That article seems pretty well thought out. I don't know if 4th "Polizei" should be so low.
I don't really like the idea that a squad's quality level should apply for certain units entirely. At least here is a good baseline to start with. Axis Minor would be fine for some more riff raff formations.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
That article seems pretty well thought out. I don't know if 4th "Polizei" should be so low.
I don't really like the idea that a squad's quality level should apply for certain units entirely. At least here is a good baseline to start with. Axis Minor would be fine for some more riff raff formations.

overall, i thought the majority of the ratings to be rather a bit too high.
for example:

I would rate 1939-1941 LSSAH Rifle Squads as:

4-6-8 (E)
4-6-7 (1)
4-4-7 (2)

A line company of Sept 1939 LSSAH Reg't would have 3 x 4-6-8, 3 x 4-6-7 and 6 x 4-4-7.

By May 1940 there would be an even split between Elite and 1st line squads.

5th Wiking would depend on the Regiment.

Germania: 1941-Dec 1942:

4-6-8 (E)
4-6-7 (1)
4-4-7 (2)

Nordland:

5-4-8 (E)
5-3-8 (1) ( use Finn G)
4-4-7 (2)

Westland:

4-6-8 (E)
4-6-7 (1)
4-4-7 (2)

All Elite and 1st line units would retain the +1 broken side ML. Elite units could be modeled as fanatic in depicting certain events. ( Such as the defenses of the Gniloi Tikitsch Bridges.)

In all 3 cases, these formation would field an approximation of 25% Elite, 50% 1st line and 25% 2nd line; with the caveat that if it was the Nordland or Westland Regiments returning to European Russia after being refitted in Mar- Apr 42 there would be a higher proportion of 2nd line represented. ( the "volunteers" assigned after the initial drafts which activated these units were not in majority composed of volunteers. In many cases , the men were under an impression they were volunteering for war work in the occupied eastern countries, and not told that "war work" would be military service.


the Waffen - SS was NOT a grouping of "SS- Supermen." It should not be portrayed as such in scenarios.

Too many of the men who comprised the units were draftees, lied to about what they were volunteering for, transferred from other units without their knowledge. None of the above could be modeled as "fanatical Nazi Sympathizers." Fatalistic, poorly commanded and despised by their enemies to the point of summary execution was more their mindset as it was their fare. Not a surprising fate, given that no unit of the Waffen - SS was immune from war crimes.

SWs should be carefully considered, and you will find many of the Hungarian counters to be useful in this regard. Only the mainstream pre- war units were equipped with standardized weaponry. The Waffen - SS made extensive use of captured armories and whatever was at hand to arm the troops, including their SWs and their Anti- Tank units, and their unit assigned artillery.

I'd be inclined to use the Hun counters rather than regular Axis Minor counters to model some of the riff - raff formations, and would most definitely include the Handschar Division in the riff - raff category, along with the 34th Nederland Division, just as 2 prominent examples.

Most of those units in that article appear to be placed higher than I would rate them.

KRL, Jon H
 

ParaMarine

#1 fan of Hungary
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
859
Reaction score
233
Location
Board 77
First name
Big Rick
Country
llUnited States
You raise a lot of good points and having a little disparity within the units is realistic and necessary. The SS are going to be a point of contention regardless, but I think it has become pretty well expected that they represent the hardest Germans to fight against. We can go back and forward on that all day, but I think it works pretty well within the game's context. I also think it adds emphasis to the importance of Westfront battles. The Canadians at Caen had a very different kind of war than the Desert Rats did against Rommel. I think that there was a clear difference in perspective to our GIs when the Godless SS were using speakers to say "How would you like to die for Christmas?" That's part of the Ardennes mystique...that and it was arguably the point where our army transformed into the modern force.

I do think assault engineers, Elite squads, and SMG Squads should be utilized to portray their appropriate unit, and that they don't necessarily have to be part of an actual elite unit.
 

dlazov

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
7,991
Reaction score
1,377
Location
Toledo, Ohio
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Personally I think a more variety of units in the company would better simulation WW2 in general and we could expand this out to all Nationalities.

For example one could say a 1941 German Infantry company was:

[Matrix]
[1,2,3,2] x 4-6-8
[9,7,8,6] x 4-6-7
[2,1,1,4] x 4-4-7

* Note the totals add up to 12 in any one of the column selectors.

Same with every nationality.

Russian 42-43
[Matrix]
[1,0,3,2] x 4-5-8
[9,7,3,6] x 4-4-7
[1,2,3,4] x 5-2-7
[1,3,3,0] x 4-3-6

Ect.

Heck one could use these matrix's to build company level type OOBs for a scenario, man not only am I cute and cuddly, I am smart too...Glennbo must be rubbing off on me ...lol...
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
Personally I think a more variety of units in the company would better simulation WW2 in general and we could expand this out to all Nationalities.

For example one could say a 1941 German Infantry company was:

[Matrix]
[1,2,3,2] x 4-6-8
[9,7,8,6] x 4-6-7
[2,1,1,4] x 4-4-7

* Note the totals add up to 12 in any one of the column selectors.

Same with every nationality.

Russian 42-43
[Matrix]
[1,0,3,2] x 4-5-8
[9,7,3,6] x 4-4-7
[1,2,3,4] x 5-2-7
[1,3,3,0] x 4-3-6

Ect.

Heck one could use these matrix's to build company level type OOBs for a scenario, man not only am I cute and cuddly, I am smart too...Glennbo must be rubbing off on me ...lol...
I would sincerely HOPE you are not allowing Glenn to "rub off" on you...:laugh:

In any case, fully agree with the concept, and further, it is something that I think could be easily developed to fit well within another aspect, SASL company generation tables. ( you should pass the idea along to Jurgen H., dear Donski.)

I think a larger proportion of both scenarios and newer HASLs RGs are taking such things into account. you have a scattering of units from Elite to poor quality in many cases, and there are RNG procedures to spread CG RGs into multi - quality forces.

KRL, Jon H
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
12SS Panzer Division DEC 44
a Rifle Company from this designation, circa 15 Dec 1944: ( my interpretations only)

9-1 ( likely an Eastern Front Veteran Officer) company commander
8-1 ( Likely an Eastern Front Veteran Feldwebel) Company NCO

2-3-8 SS HS ( E) Company command / Signals Detachment ( combat veterans from Normandy)

3 Rifle platoons - each of:

8-1 or 8-0 leader ( should be two of each. the 8-1's represent Normandy vets, the 8-0's are recent replacements) Platoon commanders

1 x 6-5-8 (E) - the veterans, one of the platoons could likely have their veterans designated fanatic.
1 x 5-4-8 (1) - replacements via transfers from Eastern front veterans, refitted. These do NOT gain the +1 ML broken side bonus.
2 x 4-4-7 (2) - Luftwaffe drafts filling in the ranks. No +1 ML bonus here.
1 x 2-2-8 Crew (1) - a veteran SW team, +1 ML bonus, self rally capable.

2 of the platoons should have MMG, all 4 should have LMG. all four should have a Panzershrek. Elites and First Liners should get Assault fire and Spray Fire, and have underlined Morale. Elites and 1st liners should receive a -1 drm to any PF check. Elites (only) would receive a -1 drm to any ATM check.

That is how I would field the company on line the day before Wacht - am - Rhein.

but I must stress, that design and preferences must take into account not only the force being depicted, but also the opposing forces, the terrain , and the objectives, and be tailored accordingly from the "base structure".

The Wafffen - SS learned to create inherently into units at all levels "flying detachments" of numerous names and functions during the East Front Battles, and incorporated them at many levels across all units by 44-45. Some served as dedicated Anti tank teams, some as dedicated communication teams, and so on , and so on. But in all cases, they were added in addition to the "normal" T/O of manpower, and always well armed and drawn from combat veterans.

KRL, Jon H
 

dlazov

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
7,991
Reaction score
1,377
Location
Toledo, Ohio
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
I would sincerely HOPE you are not allowing Glenn to "rub off" on you...:laugh:

In any case, fully agree with the concept, and further, it is something that I think could be easily developed to fit well within another aspect, SASL company generation tables. ( you should pass the idea along to Jurgen H., dear Donski.)

I think a larger proportion of both scenarios and newer HASLs RGs are taking such things into account. you have a scattering of units from Elite to poor quality in many cases, and there are RNG procedures to spread CG RGs into multi - quality forces.

KRL, Jon H
Rub-a-dub-dub, three men in a tub...lol (could not resist) :laugh:

Thanskii for the infomationskii about Jurgen, I think he posts here, no?

I don't do SASL but I'd love to see a formational HASL type of thing for regular ASL (I know a lot of fellows that also enjoy the HASL type of stuff) (birds of a feather stay together or is it bodies in motion do the locomotion with a rub a dub ... never mind. ... lol)...
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,445
Reaction score
1,509
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
That article seems pretty well thought out. I don't know if 4th "Polizei" should be so low.
I don't really like the idea that a squad's quality level should apply for certain units entirely. At least here is a good baseline to start with. Axis Minor would be fine for some more riff raff formations.
The article was written many years ago but it is a start. I'd go with witchtits idea if I was to do anything on my own.
 

dlazov

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
7,991
Reaction score
1,377
Location
Toledo, Ohio
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
<beavis & butthead mode>
snicker :devious: snicker :devious: snicker :devious: he said which*tits* hahahaha
</beavis & butthead mode>
 
Top