LOS & etiquette

[revaddict]

Suppose your opponent has declared a shot but the LOS is obviously blocked. By that I mean, say, firing from Level 2 to Ground with a Level 2 Building clearly in the way. Maybe your opponent just overlooks the obstacle in the heat of the moment. Do you:

A) Immediately say, "That's a blocked LOS" and point out the error before he rolls the dice, or:

B) Wait until after he rolls the DR and then point out the error, leaving him subject to Malfunction, Sniper or other hazardous things that can happen when rolling dice.

Is there a clear direction in the rules? If not (and even if there is) is there a commonly-accepted practice among ASL players?

My suspicion is that the rules allow for option B but that most players will opt for A.

Paul

 

[WaterRabbit]

The answer would depend upon the opponent.

 

[dwardzala]

The answer depends on whether or not its a tournament game, a friendly game or a playtest.

In a tourney game, I won't say anything and I would not expect have anything said to me if the situation was reversed. Same would go for moving a 9-2 and 3 squads in a stack into an OG hex with an obvious LOS to the enemy kill stack.

In a friendly, especially against a newbie, I might state that the LOS was questionable before he rolled the dice. I would not expect the same in return.

In a playtest, I would always state the LOS was blocked and would hope that my opponent would do the same, as a bad move could ruin a playtest.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The answer would depend upon the opponent.

Same for me, although in the vast majority of cases/opponents I would say I would use Case A.

 

[Vinnie]

With tournaments or in my normalftf group it would be a declared shot so goes ahead and roll the dice.
I'd mitigate that attitude if playing someone who had asked to learn especially f they were new to "multilevel" terrain.

 

[Treadhead]

... overlooks the obstacle in the heat of the moment...

It happens.

I don't point out LOS issues like that before DR are made, even in a friendly game. In the event my playing pieces are hiding the obstacle, then I would point it out because he couldn't see the obstacle.

But, if it is really clear as you suggest, and if he has eyes to see but just isn't noticing, then that's his own fault.

I don't mean to suggest that I am too hard-core with this. But when do you stop? If the obstacle is clearly visible, I'm not going to pre-emptively point it out to him. It could happen all the time in that case.

I try always to enforce game mechanics, i.e. those rules that are imposed on both players by the game system, or events that follow the ASOP (i.e., I will usually try to remind my opponent about Rally events, e.g.).

But in this case... well, it's just too bad if he can't see what's right in front of him.

Regards,
Bruce

 

[wrongway149]

It happens.

In the event my playing pieces are hiding the obstacle, then I would point it out because he couldn't see the obstacle.

This is often the case with SMOKE, etc. cluttering up the battlefield.

My rule: if dice are rolled or check-string laid, the shot counts. Until either of those occur, the option to back out exists.

Sometimes I will tighten that up in a tourney game, especially if my opponent is a tight-ass.

 

[Earthpig]

In our group, if the shot is declared, we tell him it's blocked (or check with string) then make him roll dice for malf. or ROF.:smoke: I've never done tourney play so don't know if I'd do it there or not. With a newbie I try to be very patient and point out mistakes early.

 

[Markdv5208]

I agree

I agree with Pete and the others...a lot depends on circumstance

In our circle of gamers, obvious LOS faux pas are undone.

But once the dice are rolled or string is pulled out, then it's over.

What I hate about those moments are when I do it, roll the dice and its SNAKES or ROF...
Or when the other guy does it and he wastes a 12 or 11 on it....

Sigh...it's all about me.

Mark DV
GR MICH

 

[WaterRabbit]

This is often the case with SMOKE, etc. cluttering up the battlefield.

My rule: if dice are rolled or check-string laid, the shot counts. Until either of those occur, the option to back out exists.

Sometimes I will tighten that up in a tourney game, especially if my opponent is a tight-ass.

This is the standard I play to as well. Additionally, unless I am teaching someone who is trying to not make these mistakes I am fairly forgiving of "Brain-farts" -- they happen to everyone and if you start playing as a hard-ass then you better be prepared, because your opponent will start down that road as well which quickly can lead to a game that wasn't much fun.

 

[JD Sullivan]

In Jeff and Pete's camp. It doesn't count until LOS is strung or dice are rolled. But I will ask, "are you sure?"

I don't declare a shot until I'm ready to string or roll, i.e. am committed to the shot. I have no qualms about asking for a pause while I eyeball it and mull it over then declare, string, roll or decline and tell him to continue.

 

[alanp]

I believe A6.11 covers this possibility. I also believe it's a pretty 'hard-nosed' rule to enforce among friends/playtests/newbies. (especially in several of the cases mentioned above where the firer might not notice terrain because something covers it up.)

 

[Jim McLeod]

Suppose your opponent has declared a shot but the LOS is obviously blocked. By that I mean, say, firing from Level 2 to Ground with a Level 2 Building clearly in the way. Maybe your opponent just overlooks the obstacle in the heat of the moment. Do you:

A) Immediately say, "That's a blocked LOS" and point out the error before he rolls the dice, or:

B) Wait until after he rolls the DR and then point out the error, leaving him subject to Malfunction, Sniper or other hazardous things that can happen when rolling dice.

Is there a clear direction in the rules? If not (and even if there is) is there a commonly-accepted practice among ASL players?

My suspicion is that the rules allow for option B but that most players will opt for A.

Paul

Let him shoot. His sloppy play in not seeing a clearly blocked LOS is not your concern.

ASL is all about experience. Chances are after making one or two shots with such a blocked LOS that player will become more thorough in checking your LOS.

 

[Will Fleming]

Provided my opponent does the same for me, I point out obvious blocks before the dice are rolled. "The building in X1 blocks that. Shoot somewhere else." If it comes up for me first, I will generally point it out, but I can't say I am 100% on it.

WR/WW are right about heading down that road and/or playing those with hermetic anuses. I have had games where I point things out to my opponent and allow him to correct them, but then wasn't given the same leeway back. Those guys I tend to remember more than anything else. You hunker down, go slow checking everything, call them on all rules questions, etc..... Games with them suck. Fortunately, there are few such players around.

If my opponent is aggressive and rolls without waiting, that is different.
If my opponent exhibits plan B, then I of course do the same.

 

[DerBlitzer]

I was playing a very small FtF tournament, one of the SK1 scenarios, and I announced a shot on one of my opponent's advancing squads. I then instantly realized that the LOS was blocked---a stack of my counters was sitting in a buiding hex, covering up the building depiction, which sat squarely between the firer and the target. I fully expected him to say, "No problem, the counters were covering it," but he said, "You yakked it. Next shot." I didn't argue because I wanted to keep things friendly, but it was a little annoying, especially as I had given him some leeway in the rules, as he was pretty much a beginner. It was an obvious LOS block. The lesson? I guess it pays to push a stack of counters a tad off the hex's center to see what's underneath, even if you think you know. Kind of like glancing at your cards a million times in poker. I also didn't play this guy again.

Frankly, when it comes to deciding such things, I look at it from the realism angle. If a squad on the ground might have taken the shot, thinking they'd hit something, it's a blocked shot. If the squad would never have taken the shot, since the LOS is very obviously blocked, then I'd probably give my opponent another attempt.

 

[A/CSM Bird]

There's a famous bit of video( couldn't find a link) I saw many moons ago from the Lebanon civil war. Hezbulla fighters are setting up a single shot Katyusha on a rooftop aimed to fire over another building nearby. Well you can guess what happens, the rocket hits the building, much to the dismay of the firing team, to say the least

No takebacks there, eh

War is hell.

He takes the shot, too bad, so sad. Better luck next time.

 

[Michael R]

Plan B

With any newbie, I'd go with Plan A: point out the blocked LOS before he rolls. Anyone else, I prefer to let them beat me all by themselves.

 

[WaterRabbit]

With any newbie, I'd go with Plan A: point out the blocked LOS before he rolls. Anyone else, I prefer to let them beat me all by themselves.

I would prefer for them to beat me with their best game than beat them over a bunch of silly mistakes.

 

[revaddict]

Frankly, when it comes to deciding such things, I look at it from the realism angle. If a squad on the ground might have taken the shot, thinking they'd hit something, it's a blocked shot. If the squad would never have taken the shot, since the LOS is very obviously blocked, then I'd probably give my opponent another attempt.

Thanks for the feedback, everybody. The above quote is pretty much where I come down. I play VASL regularly against a more experienced opponent. While we both make those occasional lapses in judgment due to Mushy Brain Syndrome after a few hours of play, I still like to give our cardboard troops a little credit for having a few brain cells functioning.

And while I understand the need to stick to the rules in tournament play, I think if I ever played against someone who was totally anal about this it would be the last time I played him.

Paul

 

[James Taylor]

Thanks for the feedback, everybody. The above quote is pretty much where I come down. I play VASL regularly against a more experienced opponent. While we both make those occasional lapses in judgment due to Mushy Brain Syndrome after a few hours of play, I still like to give our cardboard troops a little credit for having a few brain cells functioning.

And while I understand the need to stick to the rules in tournament play, I think if I ever played against someone who was totally anal about this it would be the last time I played him.

Paul

Well based on my experience... and what you've seen posted here... if the circumstance was a tourney game I think you'd find a lot of people you wouldn't play again.

This event is handled differently based on the circumstance of play. When I play a game against my regular opponent... (which both of us would categorize as "for fun" since there ain't anything else we are playing for)... we would let the shot stand. Neither of us would even think of asking for or offering a take-back on this. That is how it would be done in a tourney as well. This says more about our level as players than our "anal retentiveness". We've both played A LOT... and therefore we expect each other to recognize these things.

In a playtest... or against someone that I am teaching the game too... I would point out the blocked LOS before the dice were rolled or string was put to board.

JT