Grudge Rules as Tournament Rules

Actionjick

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
5,683
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Actionjick said:
At an event if two attendees agree to not abide by the TD's SSR in their scenario should the " mutually agreed upon " clause in the ASLRB override the TDs rule?
Click to expand...
I was going to scroll up thread for the rule but Rikki wants petted. Priorities.
 
Actionjick

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
5,683
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Von M is right. A very interesting thread and some spirited discussion the forum needed.
 
Sparafucil3

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,791
Reaction score
5,953
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
bprobst said:
Because they're objectively stupid rules?

No, really, they are. They have NOTHING to do with "balance". It's all about "I don't like that, I'm in charge, so screw what anyone else might think, I'm enforcing this so ha ha ha you suck I'm the best."
Click to expand...
Just because you think them objectively stupid doesn’t mean the TD hasn’t considered them when doing balance and PBS. I know the TDs in question (for the most part) and none of them are as silly as you suggest here. You don’t like them that’s fine but I strongly disagree with your characterization. — jim
 
Sparafucil3

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,791
Reaction score
5,953
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Michael Dorosh said:
It's his signature move. Any ASL stuff he "reviews" on his site that he doesn't like the look of, he immediately throws out aspersions about the decisions behind it and the quality of the playtesting or just flat out states that it was thrown together without any thought or testing even though in many cases, it is demonstrably not true. To my mind, playtesting only catches so much, and even mainstream publishers can only do so much with their playtesters.

And one needs look no further than Mark's own oeuvre to see complaints about balance among his designs which could very easily subject him to the same criticisms he so frequently hurls at others.

For giggles, I took a look at his scenarios at the archive. I had quite forgotten I had personally logged a play of one of his "free scenarios" from his Designers Guide:

https://www.aslscenarioarchive.com/scenario.php?id=59671

View attachment 30191

ROAR has this one as 8 Japanese wins to 1 Indonesian. In our playthrough, the only one recorded at the archive, Colin managed to eke a last CC-phase win as the Indonesian despite Malf both AFV MA. We decided the scenario was a dog despite the result. More importantly, we had fun, because it was ASL.

So did Mark playtest this one at all? It would be very easy to hurl his signature criticism back in his face based on the feedback of all his scenarios to date. Archive user Kermit Mullens posted this just last May about another of Mark's designs:

Well that was a game of ASL. My SS are still scratching their heads on what to do differently to get across the bridge. By Turn 4, I was still not across the bridge and still facing Partisans on the north side. So, did the math and gave the concession. Not sure how the Germans are supposed to win this one with roadblocks, HIP Partisans., who are Fanatic with 3 Panzerfausts and a nice German HMG with a 9-2 directing it for fun. And so far ROAR seems to confirm that this is a Partisan gimme

Personally, I think the whole notion of "playtesting" is just something Mark holds over everyone else without really much understanding its limitations. That would certainly apply with regards to his critique of tournament rules. To answer your question more directly: of course Mark will simply assume the worst of anyone doing something not completely to his liking. It's his schtick. When a liberal doesn't like your stance on an issue (any issue) he calls you a racist. And if he doesn't like your scenario or tournament rules, he shits on your playtesting.
Click to expand...
That’s you Michael, not me. I can honestly say any shade Mark throws my way is probably deserved. I have treated him pretty shabbily in the past.

The rest, meh. I acknowledge your opinion. I don’t agree with it for the most part. Life is too short to focus on the bad stuff. My grandson makes me happy. Hard to get pissed off. — jim
 
Turuk

Turuk

Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2023
Messages
151
Reaction score
260
Country
llUnited States
As an unbiased (I don’t know any of the relevant parties) and uninformed (I don’t attend tournaments) outside viewer, I think there is value in the thoughts of both sides that is being lost in the extremes being expressed.

For those against grudge rules, I see the merit of ASL as a complex, detailed system that attempts to account for as much as it can and yet, as any human system, it has its flaws and shortcomings. In that, it is still the core experience that underpins how people learn to play. Once rules are made to “fix” a flawed/broken part of the system, it feels to some that small steps are being taken to move away from the core ruleset and start taking liberties with how the game was designed to be played. As anyone who ever did land nav knows, 4 degrees of error over 100m is minimal, over 1km is 69.8m and so on…. It seems minor at first, but will lead you far astray over time. So grudge rules are seen as the start of that path of deviation from the core rules, which could have long-term consequences.

For those for grudge rules, it is an opportunity to fix a particular rule or subset of rules that apply to edge cases that they feel are unfair or have frustrated them over the years in how they play out. In their own games, club games, they have experimented with a variation or negation of a rule that they feel adds practical or enjoyment value in some form. Their tournaments are a chance to make those preferences universal because they feel the value those rules add are worth the changes. These are not official MMP tournaments(?) so there is no tacit endorsement of these rules. From what I have observed in following these forums, I do not see these TDs making a concerted, persistent effort for these rules to be in effect outside of their tournaments to alter the whole landscape of ASL.

Both voices are valid - some rules or applications of those rules in certain situations may be broken and a rule to “fix” it may be an honest attempt at improvement. Yet, we should always avoid the slippery slope of changing things we don’t like because we wish the game would play differently.

Both voices, in thoughtful dialogue, maintain the balance of driving improvement in scenario design, playtesting, and community engagment (no one can argue the level of passion in this thread).
 
Last edited:
Michael Dorosh

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,747
Reaction score
2,796
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Turuk said:
It seems minor at first, but will lead you far astray over time. So grudge rules are seen as the start of that path of deviation from the core rules, which could have long-term consequences.
Click to expand...
The rules being discussed, as they were presented, in effect prevented players from lighting objective buildings on fire and using unloaded passenger vehicles as suicide overrun machines. I think in that case, the long term consequences you allude to would be wholly positive: making players focus on using the core rules to win, and at the same time maintaining a slightly thicker veneer of historical accuracy.

Were you thinking of some other, more negative, consequences?
 
Turuk

Turuk

Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2023
Messages
151
Reaction score
260
Country
llUnited States
Michael Dorosh said:
Were you thinking of some other, more negative, consequences?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily for those specific rules, but the Pandora’s box that opens on what rules are deemed positive, which negative, the level of playtesting to prove that case, who would make the unilateral decision to apply them more broadly etc… I can follow the path of those of who see grudge rules as a potential official alternate way to play that could subvert the published rules. All in good intentions, but they would ask, where does it stop?

Not arguing with you at all - personally, I can appreciate rules that stop players from abusing the system to obtain a legal win at the expense of highly improbable situations. If I was on the receiving end, I would accept the validity of the win but not be thrilled about it, and I might find myself wishing there was a rule to ensure the intent of the scenario was preserved.
 
Fort

Fort

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
5,953
Reaction score
1,761
Location
virginia
Country
llUnited States
PresterJohn said:

Tournament – Arnhem ASL

arnhemasl.com arnhemasl.com
So casino grade 19 mm dice were not allowed at the tournament? Now that's just weird.

Casino dice do NOT have ball corners and given the amount of money that depend on casino dice being fair rather than "precision" dice, I'm going to follow the money and call that rule bogus.
Click to expand...
those casino dice are designed to be used in a very specific manner and on a very specific table design. The size and sharp corner edges are to increase the amount of random deflections and spin when contact a padded felt surface. Each surface contacted decreases the ability to use throwing manipulation sleight of hand tricks to influence the outcome. That’s why the ‘must contact two surfaces at a minimum’ rule exists.
when used in dice tower or free rolled the casino dice do not perform as designed and can be manipulated.
 
Futbol

Futbol

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
445
Reaction score
332
Location
Detroit
Country
llUnited States
VEHICLES: Vehicle Crews can never gain Control of Terrain

I like this one as it makes sense. and I think the crew of a destroyed vehicle should be under recall as well. Such crews would tend to leave the battlefield rather than fight unless forced. and using them to control a building especially... (unless it's on their way exiting the board) seems imho to be ahistorical.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top