Chess clocks at ASL tournaments, feasibility, thoughts, experience

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
10,452
Reaction score
3,760
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
I tend to agree but while helping to run Oktoberfest we had a few players who were unbelievably slow. While we never had time limits it wasn't a problem for the tournament but more of an annoyance for the slow player's opponent.

How should this situation be handled at events that do have time restrictions? I think resolving the problem with a dice roll is very unsatisfactory.
When I have run into this, I speak to the TD on a small break. I ask him to come over and watch. At least that way if it goes to adjudication the TD knows it wasn't my fault and I get the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, if you're at a tournament on a time schedule, you know going into it you're looking at this possibility. I have watched a player who was losing deliberately slow the game down to get to the die roll. TD's gave him a DR 4 or less to win, otherwise his opponent won. He rolled a 3. Was the only way he stood a chance to win so I guess good on him. Sucks that was even an option. -- jim
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,939
Reaction score
1,355
Location
The Empty Quarter
Country
llLithuania
Huh....interesting thought....Chess clock on live VASL....?

Anybody willing to give it a go?
 

bendizoid

Official ***** Dickweed
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
3,558
Reaction score
1,546
Location
Viet Nam
Country
llUnited States
It’s always fun when you see two slow players setting up at 6 PM and next morning at 8AM you stroll by smiling with your coffee.
 

Michael R

Minor Hero
Staff member
Moderator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
3,390
Reaction score
1,967
Location
La Belle Province
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Erik Lindblad and I tried a couple of games with chess clocks to have that experience. In both games, one person ran out of time before anyone had run achieved their VC. We need to try it again, however, because we needed to stop the clock more often than we did (ex: rolling MC). I liked it as a different experience. Later on (post Ortona playtesting), I hope to try it again to see if it can turn me from an average speed player to a fast player.
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,464
Reaction score
1,501
Country
llUnited States
When I have run into this, I speak to the TD on a small break. I ask him to come over and watch. At least that way if it goes to adjudication the TD knows it wasn't my fault and I get the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, if you're at a tournament on a time schedule, you know going into it you're looking at this possibility. I have watched a player who was losing deliberately slow the game down to get to the die roll. TD's gave him a DR 4 or less to win, otherwise his opponent won. He rolled a 3. Was the only way he stood a chance to win so I guess good on him. Sucks that was even an option. -- jim
That is totally unsportsmanlike!!🤮🤮🤮. He will never have a seat of honor at The Great Gaming Table in Valhalla!🤮🤮🤮🤮
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,464
Reaction score
1,501
Country
llUnited States
Erik Lindblad and I tried a couple of games with chess clocks to have that experience. In both games, one person ran out of time before anyone had run achieved their VC. We need to try it again, however, because we needed to stop the clock more often than we did (ex: rolling MC). I liked it as a different experience. Later on (post Ortona playtesting), I hope to try it again to see if it can turn me from an average speed player to a fast player.
While the clock may be a reminder to speed up your play I believe it is more a matter of attitude. Try not overthinking it and just do it. The time for deep thinking is when there is no chance to play.
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,464
Reaction score
1,501
Country
llUnited States
Well, I reckon to get a seat at the great gaming table in Valhalla, you have to die gaming...

von Marwitz
At least with a pair of dice in your hand. Remember that before going to bed tonight!😊😊
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,464
Reaction score
1,501
Country
llUnited States
Erik Lindblad and I tried a couple of games with chess clocks to have that experience. In both games, one person ran out of time before anyone had run achieved their VC. We need to try it again, however, because we needed to stop the clock more often than we did (ex: rolling MC). I liked it as a different experience. Later on (post Ortona playtesting), I hope to try it again to see if it can turn me from an average speed player to a fast player.
I admire your goal but remember first and foremost to be a player who is having fun and enjoying the game and the comradeship it enables.There may be situations that require you to play more quickly so being prepared by experience for that time is a good thing. If you find that kicking your speed to a higher gear is not as enjoyable as cruising speed, either for you or your passenger, I mean opponent, then relax and enjoy the ride, game.😊

I've always enjoyed fast play, whatever the game. Speed chess is great! That's just me. One of the most satisfying things about having Fish as my regular opponent is that he liked quick play also.That was us. Do what you are comfortable with and always try to give your opponent a good game. 😊
 

Chris Bryer

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
220
Reaction score
138
Location
Los Angeles
Country
llUnited States
The rules of chess allow for easy understanding of what is possible on every move. Not so much with ASL.

Timers are a poor choice for that reason. Especially, when you have a a less experienced players.
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
10,452
Reaction score
3,760
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
The rules of chess allow for easy understanding of what is possible on every move. Not so much with ASL.

Timers are a poor choice for that reason. Especially, when you have a a less experienced players.
Experience comes with play. You wanna play more? Play faster. It's a nice positive reinforcement feedback loop. -- jim
 

daniel zucker

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
192
Location
new jersey
Country
llUnited States
I agree that it can be boring for a very fast player to be matched with a very slow one. But keep in mind that a very slow player will likey not enjoy playing a very fast one either. It works both ways.

IMHO the best way to solve this the following:
First, the players should attempt amongst themselves to find a way to reach a decision.
If they cannot, then the game needs to be judged. Either by the TD or by experienced players(s) assigned by the TD. Those who judge will listen to both sides for up two minutes why each thinks it should win. Then the judges will decide, and naturally, there's no 'appeal'.

I know that some people frown on judging games, but I think it is less arbitrary than a decision by DR.

von Marwitz
Von, a little ironic, that you are against time clocks in playing a match but only give a player TWO minutes to make their case for why they should win.
Reducing the game to a verbal power point contest with victory , IN A Tournament, a tournament; a structured contest to determine who is the best. If the people who are hosting the contest feel that slow play will hamper or otherwise hurt the crowing of a winner then I say GOOD.
from what I see and have experienced there are some players who cant even complete a VASL email game when given a MONTH !!!!
Im one of the worst ASL Players I know. But I'll use a Chess clock. Just another level of pretending to be a combat commander in a combat situation.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,396
Reaction score
6,649
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Experience comes with play. You wanna play more? Play faster. It's a nice positive reinforcement feedback loop. -- jim
That you say as a player with 3000+ scenarios under your belt. The other proponents of chessclocks in this thread are also extremely experienced players to the man as far as I can tell.

Of course, experience comes with a lot of play, which in turn increases the pace of play. But it might be a good idea to recall that all the things that you do not even need to think about any more (rules, DRMs, gut feeling, etc. Though you still have merely memorized the IFT and not the IIFT with CTC...) and thus don't require any time for, can pose serious challenges for average players and of course even more so for novices.

The perception of what is 'fast' and 'slow' is affected by experience.

But this is not all. While some people like the fast style in the line of 'let's move and see what happens', others have a completely different mindset and want to know 'what would happen if I moved that way'. These two mindsets or rather playing styles don't go well together, regardless of experience but surely the issue is made worse if there is a wide gap in experience levels.

This is not to deny that there are exceedingly slow players by all standards. But there might also be too fast players for most of the flock.

That extremes are matched happens rather rarely. In friendly games you can ask about the playing style and pace of your potential opponents. In tournaments, later rounds naturally tend to match 'winning' (i.e. more experienced and thus often faster players) and 'losing' ones (i.e. the less experienced and often slower ones) together.

I advise just to allow generous leeway. Rather than chess clocks.
Slow players will likely be annoyed by them. Fast players don't need them.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,396
Reaction score
6,649
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Von, a little ironic, that you are against time clocks in playing a match but only give a player TWO minutes to make their case for why they should win.
Reducing the game to a verbal power point contest with victory
I don't quite agree.

Both players have been playing the game up to this point for hours. That they play slow does not mean they don't have an idea why they think they will win. To develop that opinion they had ample time all throughout their game. To state what they believe does not require more than two minutes.

The judges, being experienced players, will look at the game and have at least an idea if what the players state is wishful thinking or rather founded. The players' statements merely puts the judges scrutiny also to places that the players deem important for the judges' decision. But it is not the players' statements that win the contest but the decision of the judges.

von Marwitz
 

daniel zucker

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
192
Location
new jersey
Country
llUnited States
I don't quite agree.

Both players have been playing the game up to this point for hours. That they play slow does not mean they don't have an idea why they think they will win. To develop that opinion they had ample time all throughout their game. To state what they believe does not require more than two minutes.

The judges, being experienced players, will look at the game and have at least an idea if what the players state is wishful thinking or rather founded. The players' statements merely puts the judges scrutiny also to places that the players deem important for the judges' decision. But it is not the players' statements that win the contest but the decision of the judges.

von Marwitz
IF as you say
'The judges, being experienced players, will look at the game and have at least an idea if what the players state is wishful thinking or rather founded. The players' statements merely puts the judges scrutiny also to places that the players deem important for the judges' decision. But it is not the players' statements that win the contest but the decision of the judges.'

then why bother to have the players say anything? i.e. in figure ice skating they don't get to tell the judges what they were thinking. Same thing in Boxing, and that may be an even better analogue , its a combat game too.
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
10,452
Reaction score
3,760
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
That you say as a player with 3000+ scenarios under your belt. The other proponents of chessclocks in this thread are also extremely experienced players to the man as far as I can tell.

Of course, experience comes with a lot of play, which in turn increases the pace of play. But it might be a good idea to recall that all the things that you do not even need to think about any more (rules, DRMs, gut feeling, etc. Though you still have merely memorized the IFT and not the IIFT with CTC...) and thus don't require any time for, can pose serious challenges for average players and of course even more so for novices.

The perception of what is 'fast' and 'slow' is affected by experience.

But this is not all. While some people like the fast style in the line of 'let's move and see what happens', others have a completely different mindset and want to know 'what would happen if I moved that way'. These two mindsets or rather playing styles don't go well together, regardless of experience but surely the issue is made worse if there is a wide gap in experience levels.

This is not to deny that there are exceedingly slow players by all standards. But there might also be too fast players for most of the flock.

That extremes are matched happens rather rarely. In friendly games you can ask about the playing style and pace of your potential opponents. In tournaments, later rounds naturally tend to match 'winning' (i.e. more experienced and thus often faster players) and 'losing' ones (i.e. the less experienced and often slower ones) together.

I advise just to allow generous leeway. Rather than chess clocks.
Slow players will likely be annoyed by them. Fast players don't need them.

von Marwitz
I readily admit, I play faster than most. I always tell my opponent I play fast. I always make exceptions about moving forward. If I have moved past, I will happily unwind to the point you wanted to shoot and try to slow down some to accommodate my opponent. I want my opponent to be comfortable with the pace of play as well. But that road goes both ways. -- jim
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,396
Reaction score
6,649
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
IF as you say
'The judges, being experienced players, will look at the game and have at least an idea if what the players state is wishful thinking or rather founded. The players' statements merely puts the judges scrutiny also to places that the players deem important for the judges' decision. But it is not the players' statements that win the contest but the decision of the judges.'

then why bother to have the players say anything? i.e. in figure ice skating they don't get to tell the judges what they were thinking. Same thing in Boxing, and that may be an even better analogue , its a combat game too.
Well, in court both sides are heard. I don't believe that potentially more can be gained by hearing both players' comments than by not hearing them.

For example, the judge may, in the given situation, see a good chance for player A to win. Player A tells the judge the plan for his further attack. The judge sees that if Player A follows the path he just outlined, he will most likely lose the game. Had Player A stated his intention to follow the path which the judge thinks to be the one which would have enabled victory, then the decision would probably have been 'Win' for Player A in the latter case while it would have been 'Loss' for Player A in the former.

Had the judge not listened to the statements of the players' plans, he would have based his judgement on his own, the judges plan on how to finish that scenario, not that of the players.

von Marwitz
 

daniel zucker

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
192
Location
new jersey
Country
llUnited States
Well, in court both sides are heard. I don't believe that potentially more can be gained by hearing both players' comments than by not hearing them.

For example, the judge may, in the given situation, see a good chance for player A to win. Player A tells the judge the plan for his further attack. The judge sees that if Player A follows the path he just outlined, he will most likely lose the game. Had Player A stated his intention to follow the path which the judge thinks to be the one which would have enabled victory, then the decision would probably have been 'Win' for Player A in the latter case while it would have been 'Loss' for Player A in the former.

Had the judge not listened to the statements of the players' plans, he would have based his judgement on his own, the judges plan on how to finish that scenario, not that of the players.

von Marwitz
your approach to ASL Judge's is more of a court of Law type of position than mine, a abartarator of the situation.
 
Top