Chess clocks at ASL tournaments, feasibility, thoughts, experience

Actionjick

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This is why I question if computers will ever be able to play ASL like Chess, beating skilled humans.
I wouldn't trust them to not manipulate the dice bot!!!πŸ™„πŸ™„πŸ™„
HAL, Skynet, Colossus the Forbin Project, all warnings to gamers playing AI.🀣🀣🀣

Read Colossus wbitd. That was when it was thought there would only be a few super computers worldwide. PCs not really in the books.
 

Eagle4ty

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This is why I question if computers will ever be able to play ASL like Chess, beating skilled humans.
Not to mention a goodly portion of the fun in ASL is learning/exploiting the knowledge and application of complex rules and their use in game play. Computer games, even those turn based, while being fairly fun have never enjoyed the longevity or the interactivity of both players that board games have simply because in most cases the rules remain a mystery to the players (Chess being a simplistic game system is perhaps one of the few exceptions). Our brains enjoy the challenge of learning and applying the rules correctly and as much as we may argue about their applicability/meaning in game play, we enjoy that aspect as much as the actual play of the game though we may be unaware of it. Many attempts have been made to bring ASL into the computer game world and while being mildly fun and enjoying some success, have failed to capture the imagination or replicate the longevity and interest of the actual board game with its rule book.
 

boylermaker

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The formula we have used:
For each turn in the game, for each side:
  • Allocate 30 seconds for each personnel (SMC or MMC) counter
  • Allocate 60 seconds for each vehicle
Both sides get their own clock.

Clock runs:
  • During Prep Fire, Adv Fire (shooting player's clock)
  • During Movement (Moveing players clock)
  • During D-Fire (DFF, SFF, DFPh Defending player's clock)
  • During Advance Phase (advancing player's clock)
Clock stopped:
  • Resolving attacks
  • Rulz dives
  • Rout Phase
My gut would be that this would give the defender way too much time. If the defender is spending his moves skulking while the attacker has to throw smoke, cover ground, etc, the defender is at a decided advantage because his MPh goes quicker per unit. Did you not run into that problem? Or did you pick meeting-engagement style scenarios where each player had a lot of movement to do?
 

Kijug

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Huh....interesting thought....Chess clock on live VASL....?

Anybody willing to give it a go?
What about a chess clock for PBEM? I mean...if you're going to do it....
 

Actionjick

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My gut would be that this would give the defender way too much time. If the defender is spending his moves skulking while the attacker has to throw smoke, cover ground, etc, the defender is at a decided advantage because his MPh goes quicker per unit. Did you not run into that problem? Or did you pick meeting-engagement style scenarios where each player had a lot of movement to do?
These are the type of questions I was interested in when I started this thread. Something I was curious about from an academic point of view, ie how would it work.
 

Actionjick

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It almost seems as if it would have been simpler to use clocks in SL due to the mechanics of Defensive Fire in standard SL. Just a thought. πŸ€”
 

von Marwitz

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These are the type of questions I was interested in when I started this thread. Something I was curious about from an academic point of view, ie how would it work.
In any case a the same amount of time given to both players does not necessarily mean that the time ist justly divided due to a large varietey of possible factors:
  • Many units on one side, few on the other
  • One side needs to make difficult choices, while the other might only need to sit tight and fire.
  • One side might have an AVRE tank (Eveyone well familiar with these? ;)), while the other one might have LMG's.
  • One side might need to dump much time into a good defensive setup, which is not caught by the chess clock, while the other might need more time during the actual game for the difficult decisions, which is caught by the chess clock.
Without doubt, this list could be continued with many more factors, for which 'time is not equal'.

That said, in many situations if not in most, if both players are given the same amount of time, this will affect the balance of the scenario to favor one of the sides. And this has not been considered during playtesting.

In fact, the use of chessclocks would have to be part of playtesting a scenario design to make things work, which has yet never been the case. Basically, the 'time factor' and the amount of time which should be allotted to each side would currently be only fishing in the dark.

IMHO a strong argument against the use of chess clocks.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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In any case a the same amount of time given to both players does not necessarily mean that the time ist justly divided due to a large varietey of possible factors:
  • Many units on one side, few on the other
  • One side needs to make difficult choices, while the other might only need to sit tight and fire.
  • One side might have an AVRE tank (Eveyone well familiar with these? ;)), while the other one might have LMG's.
  • One side might need to dump much time into a good defensive setup, which is not caught by the chess clock, while the other might need more time during the actual game for the difficult decisions, which is caught by the chess clock.
Without doubt, this list could be continued with many more factors, for which 'time is not equal'.

That said, in many situations if not in most, if both players are given the same amount of time, this will affect the balance of the scenario to favor one of the sides. And this has not been considered during playtesting.

In fact, the use of chessclocks would have to be part of playtesting a scenario design to make things work, which has yet never been the case. Basically, the 'time factor' and the amount of time which should be allotted to each side would currently be only fishing in the dark.

IMHO a strong argument against the use of chess clocks.

von Marwitz
I hadn't considered how balance would be affected but then again balance wasn't an issue I ever gave much consideration to.

While initially thinking about this I had considered splitting the time 2/3 Attacker, 1/3 Defender. This seemed simplistic but sometimes simple is better.

Like I said up thread I am not advocating the use of clocks as the time factor at tournaments doesn't seem to be a major problem. Something TDs should be aware of that might come up.

Actually the statement about balance is not quite accurate. When playtesting a scenario balance was a prime consideration. πŸ€”
 
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Jazz

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IMHO a strong argument against the use of chess clocks.

von Marwitz
Seems the concept of a chess clock has come close to a nerve.....?

As I said before, there are ways to set up the clock that mitigate many the issues you mention. Granted, not all and not completely.

As I also said, playing with a chess clock is NOT a good way to make slow players play faster and it REQUIRES two opponents who want to make the clock work.

I have never played you but judging from your replies, I suspect you would not be a good candidate for playing with a clock. I for one would never suggest that you do so.
 

Actionjick

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Actually the statement about balance is not quite accurate. When playtesting a scenario balance was a prime consideration. πŸ€”
Which begs the question how can someone who gives little credence to the concept of balance determine balance in a scenario?πŸ€”πŸ€”
 

Actionjick

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Seems the concept of a chess clock has come close to a nerve.....?

As I said before, there are ways to set up the clock that mitigate many the issues you mention. Granted, not all and not completely.

As I also said, playing with a chess clock is NOT a good way to make slow players play faster and it REQUIRES two opponents who want to make the clock work.

I have never played you but judging from your replies, I suspect you would not be a good candidate for playing with a clock. I for one would never suggest that you do so.
I agree with your observation that clocks would not speed up the play of slow players. Not only would it probably stress them out it might actually slow down their play.
 

Jazz

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My gut would be that this would give the defender way too much time. If the defender is spending his moves skulking while the attacker has to throw smoke, cover ground, etc, the defender is at a decided advantage because his MPh goes quicker per unit. Did you not run into that problem? Or did you pick meeting-engagement style scenarios where each player had a lot of movement to do?
Generally, the attacking side in a scenario has more numbers, so generally the attacking side gets more time.

Generally players that used the clock successfully were relatively quick players and neither side ran out of time.

In games where the clock did not work, there was no correlation between attacker/defender and who ran out of time.
 

Jazz

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I agree with your observation that clocks would not speed up the play of slow players. Not only would it probably stress them out it might actually slow down their play.
Indeed, with most slower players they actively try to make the clock fail.

<shrug> it ain't for everybody.
 

Actionjick

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Generally players that used the clock successfully were relatively quick players and neither side ran out of time.

In games where the clock did not work, there was no correlation between attacker/defender and who ran out of time.
Interesting. You seem to be one of the few players with significant experience with clocks. Thanks for your input.πŸ€—
 

von Marwitz

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Lol! A novel approach!🀣🀣
If the chess clock impacts the slegdehammer with sufficient speed, the heat created by the energy of the impulse might be hot enough to melt through the sledgehammer's steel in theory.

There is probably an infinite number of possibilities to smash sledgehammers...

von Marwitz
 
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Jazz

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Interesting. You seem to be one of the few players with significant experience with clocks. Thanks for your input.πŸ€—
Not a LOT of experience, but enough to have tried it a few times with folks that did and did not like the clock.

Enough to realize that it is not a cure for analysis paralysis....
 

Actionjick

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If the chess clock impacts the slegdehammer with sufficient speed, the heat created by the energy of the impulse might create enough heat to melt through the sledgehammer's steel in theory.

There is probably an infinite number of possibilities to smash sledgehammers...

von Marwitz
Lol! A topic for a whole new thread!
 
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