Chess clocks at ASL tournaments, feasibility, thoughts, experience

Jazz

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Did you click on the link my message? It didn't work when I first tried it but when I clicked on it today it took me to Stew's post. In VASL btw.
"This Content Not Available"

Just spent what seemed like an hour paging through posts on the VASL FB page.....nada
 

DougRim

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"This Content Not Available"

Just spent what seemed like an hour paging through posts on the VASL FB page.....nada
There was more but this is the part that matters
17162
 

Stewart

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Again, playing with a clock is NOT a good way to make slow players play faster and should not be used as such.
I disagree.
First, you don't time the individual phases, that's nigh pointless.
Time the Player Turns.
Compare this data to other plays.
Attacker takes 6 hr avg / Def 4hr.
Base most slow play on the avg.

After running a number of tournaments.
I set parameters which would lead to the slowest play.
Timed each game as to total length.
Dividing that by the number of players in the game.

I arrived at a value.
(We had one player that was AP)
I created penalties for going over your time.
The AP player's game was the first one finished in subsequent tournaments.

It works IF you penalize.
If you ignore the penalty, stop complaining about slow players ( at least in time sensitive games)
 

Stewart

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It does seem very difficult which is what lead to my starting this thread. I was curious what means were used to allocate the time in an equitable manner and how much time should be allotted per scenario. Do you simply split the time evenly, base it on the OB of each player, MF and MP for each OB? Does Strayer's Strays get more time than Traverse Right, Fire!? Just thoughts about how much more difficult it is for ASL than chess.
It's very simple at tournaments.
Usually you'll have a couple games going.
The games should end near the same time.
Compare why some went long and short.
Times for the attacker and defender should be close to a degree.
If they aren't set penalties.
A dr to decide a game is insulting 1-3 you win 4-6 I win... That's insulting and irresponsible Tournament Direction
 

Actionjick

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It's very simple at tournaments.
Usually you'll have a couple games going.
The games should end near the same time.
Compare why some went long and short.
Times for the attacker and defender should be close to a degree.
If they aren't set penalties.
A dr to decide a game is insulting 1-3 you win 4-6 I win... That's insulting and irresponsible Tournament Direction
Looking back over the thread and the other one dealing with clocks it is apparent that while they can be successfully used most players are not in favor of their general use. Among those that do like them many would like to see them in a " speed " event for fast paced players. I like that option.

I am of the opinion that clocks are not a good way to speed up a slow or methodical player. Penalizing a slow player is something else I am not in favor of. Both seem to me to be counter productive and contrary to what I consider to be the purpose of an event, to promote camaraderie.

Once again a major factor is what is the objective of the TD in running an event? If it's to determine a " champion " such draconian measures as penalizing attendees to achieve the TD's desired goal may be justified in that TD's opinion.

Another factor to consider is the format of scenarios to be played. If the TD has a list that must be used it is incumbent upon him to ensure that those selections can be completed in the allotted time. Even by a methodical player.

If the players are free to select the scenario to be played from all available scenarios or a very large list it is their responsibility to choose one that they know can be finished in time.

As with most other products the consumer ( attendees ) will determine if they like clocks at an event. Slow players seem to be a relatively minor factor at events but one that TDs should be aware of and have contingencies for.

Forcing slower players to use clocks seems to be a not very good solution looking for a problem. IMHO
 

Actionjick

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Another flaktor to be considered is the cost to acquire all the clocks necessary. The cheapest I saw on Amazon was $18.99.

While perhaps feasible for smaller events the cost for even a medium sized event would be considerable. Granted the clocks can be used again.

I believe the Australians mentioned that they have used clocks at some events so I would be curious to know how they handled the expense of the initial purchases. 🤔
 

Jazz

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Another flaktor to be considered is the cost to acquire all the clocks necessary. The cheapest I saw on Amazon was $18.99.

While perhaps feasible for smaller events the cost for even a medium sized event would be considerable. Granted the clocks can be used again.

I believe the Australians mentioned that they have used clocks at some events so I would be curious to know how they handled the expense of the initial purchases. 🤔
If you look harder, you will find that many of those clocks to not meet the requirements.....mainly the ability to stop both clocks for things like resolving attacks, rules dives, etc..... I found one that did have that functionality, it was not T-H-E least expensive model. It is often hard to see if a clock meets that requirement from the Amazon dewscription.

I did find a cell phone chess clock app that was free and which did meet all the requirements.
 

Actionjick

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If you look harder, you will find that many of those clocks to not meet the requirements.....mainly the ability to stop both clocks for things like resolving attacks, rules dives, etc..... I found one that did have that functionality, it was not T-H-E least expensive model. It is often hard to see if a clock meets that requirement from the Amazon dewscription.

I did find a cell phone chess clock app that was free and which did meet all the requirements.
Excellent! Happy to see that initial planning for Jazzfest is underway!🤗🤗😉😉🤣🤣
 

Stewart

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Looking back over the thread and the other one dealing with clocks it is apparent that while they can be successfully used most players are not in favor of their general use. Among those that do like them many would like to see them in a " speed " event for fast paced players. I like that option.

I am of the opinion that clocks are not a good way to speed up a slow or methodical player. Penalizing a slow player is something else I am not in favor of. Both seem to me to be counter productive and contrary to what I consider to be the purpose of an event, to promote camaraderie.
Forcing slower players to use clocks seems to be a not very good solution looking for a problem. IMHO
Their purpose for their use is Clouded and self centered.
The true purpose again, would be to compare players playing the SAME scenario and compare Att/Def time usage.
It SHOULD correspond most of the time for a full game.

What WOULD be a way to increase the speed of a slow player...I hear people bitching about slow players all the time..that is the ONE story that players LOVE to tell.
So, what are TD's doing to eliminate the slow play and the adjudication thereafter.

Slow players Get penalized at adjudication due to their speed of play...if they don't there is NO incentive to ever finish a game.
Forcing slower players to use clocks seems to be a not very good solution looking for a problem. IMHO
Again...ALL players would use them...not just JOHNNY from Tulsa.
 

Stewart

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Another flaktor to be considered is the cost to acquire all the clocks necessary. The cheapest I saw on Amazon was $18.99.

While perhaps feasible for smaller events the cost for even a medium sized event would be considerable. Granted the clocks can be used again.
What's wrong with using your iPAD?? or PHONE? Apps are free to download.
Why would you actually need a clock? ROFL
 

Actionjick

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Their purpose for their use is Clouded and self centered.
The true purpose again, would be to compare players playing the SAME scenario and compare Att/Def time usage.
It SHOULD correspond most of the time for a full game.

What WOULD be a way to increase the speed of a slow player...I hear people bitching about slow players all the time..that is the ONE story that players LOVE to tell.
So, what are TD's doing to eliminate the slow play and the adjudication thereafter.

Slow players Get penalized at adjudication due to their speed of play...if they don't there is NO incentive to ever finish a game.
Forcing slower players to use clocks seems to be a not very good solution looking for a problem. IMHO
Again...ALL players would use them...not just JOHNNY from Tulsa.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence but regardless most people don't want to use clocks.

Ten years helping at Oktoberfest as a TD I can only recall one instance of slow play being brought to our attention and even that was not a major issue. Probably the format of Oktoberfest lessened the chance that slow play would have much effect on players.

Perhaps today with many more events and most of them shorter in duration than ASLOk slow play is more of a factor and not merely a minor annoyance.

Penalizing players doesn't sit well with my concept of the purpose of an event. Neither does forcing players to use clocks who don't want to be bothered with them. Some people have stated that they would not attend an event that required attendees to use clocks, a viewpoint I quite understand.

The incentive to finish a game is so you can play another game and have more fun. Having fun seems to me what should be the goal of attendees and TDs alike. I would like to believe that very few people go to an event with the express purpose of slowing down play.

As to what actions a TD should take when slow play is an issue I would suggest simply encouraging the player to speed up his play. The TD should put in the event guidelines what his recourse will be in such a situation. I don't favor a dr to resolve the matter as that seems unfair to the opponent of the slow player.

It would be helpful to know if TDs encounter slow play enough to be something to be concerned about and the different ways it is handled when encountered.

People attend events for a variety of reasons but enjoyment is likely a common one. Punching a clock and worrying about being penalized doesn't seem to me to add to that enjoyment.
 

Actionjick

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What's wrong with using your iPAD?? or PHONE? Apps are free to download.
Why would you actually need a clock? ROFL
Yes Jazz did point that out. I'm sure it would work very well although some players might be reluctant to use their $1000+ phone for such a purpose.
 

Actionjick

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As I posted upthread when a TD has an event with a set list of scenarios it is his responsibility to ensure that those scenarios can be completed in the time allotted.

One of our biggest mistakes at Oktoberfest was the first Thursday Theme tournament. It was a single elimination event that was supposed to wrap up before the weekend tournament started on Friday. We had over sixty players participate and the final game wasn't completed until Friday afternoon! Not what we had intended or anticipated.

The result of that fiasco was the creation of the eight player Mini Theme Tournaments. Whether or not that was a good thing is a matter of personal opinion. Some felt the Minis diluted the Weekend Tournament.
 
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