Chess clocks at ASL tournaments, feasibility, thoughts, experience

Actionjick

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In the hardest scenario thread MajorDomo related a tournament experience where a short, low piece density scenario was not completed in the allotted time and had to be resolved by a dice roll. I thought this was an unfortunate outcome especially if the opponent was a slow player and primarily responsible for the inability to complete the scenario. I mentioned that incidents such as this bolsters the case for chess clocks. Thinking about it I wondered if clocks were feasible or if players had ever used them. Any input would be appreciated.
 

von Marwitz

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I would outright refuse to use chess clocks. If any tournament would require their use, it would be reason enough for me not to attend.

During one's 'normal' life there is more than enough time pressure one is under. I see not any reason to submit to a chess clock in my leisure time. It would simply and totally kill my enjoyment of ASL (or any game using chess clocks for that matter).

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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I would outright refuse to use chess clocks. If any tournament would require their use, it would be reason enough for me not to attend.

During one's 'normal' life there is more than enough time pressure one is under. I see not any reason to submit to a chess clock in my leisure time. It would simply and totally kill my enjoyment of ASL (or any game using chess clocks for that matter).

von Marwitz
I tend to agree but while helping to run Oktoberfest we had a few players who were unbelievably slow. While we never had time limits it wasn't a problem for the tournament but more of an annoyance for the slow player's opponent.

How should this situation be handled at events that do have time restrictions? I think resolving the problem with a dice roll is very unsatisfactory.
 

Jazz

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I love playing with a chess clock. It makes it a different game and removes one of the major sources of non-reality in the system. All of a sudden there no longer is infinite time to choreograph T-H-E ideal/optimal move.

Alas, playing with a clock is NOT a good way to make slow players play faster. For a clock to work it takes two people who want the clock to work. Most slow players who are being pressed to play faster have absolutely no interest in making the clock work.
 

Actionjick

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They are feasible, for sure. Not a lot of support for them every time I see this question come up here.
I definitely wouldn't like to see them be mandatory as I believe an event is more about fun and camaraderie than competition but what enjoyment is there when you are bored for hours by your opponent's slow play? Not playing them again is not always an option.
 

Actionjick

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I love playing with a chess clock. It makes it a different game and removes one of the major sources of non-reality in the system. All of a sudden there no longer is infinite time to choreograph T-H-E ideal/optimal move.

Alas, playing with a clock is NOT a good way to make slow players play faster. For a clock to work it takes two people who want the clock to work. Most slow players who are being pressed to play faster have absolutely no interest in making the clock work.
Nice insight and thanks for the input. I like a fast game myself.
 

von Marwitz

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I tend to agree but while helping to run Oktoberfest we had a few players who were unbelievably slow. While we never had time limits it wasn't a problem for the tournament but more of an annoyance for the slow player's opponent.

How should this situation be handled at events that do have time restrictions? I think resolving the problem with a dice roll is very unsatisfactory.
I agree that it can be boring for a very fast player to be matched with a very slow one. But keep in mind that a very slow player will likey not enjoy playing a very fast one either. It works both ways.

IMHO the best way to solve this the following:
First, the players should attempt amongst themselves to find a way to reach a decision.
If they cannot, then the game needs to be judged. Either by the TD or by experienced players(s) assigned by the TD. Those who judge will listen to both sides for up two minutes why each thinks it should win. Then the judges will decide, and naturally, there's no 'appeal'.

I know that some people frown on judging games, but I think it is less arbitrary than a decision by DR.

von Marwitz
 

Robin Reeve

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How can one adress the problem of an excessively slow player who leads to the decision of the win with a dr?
Perhaps chess clocks don't solve it, but the problem remains.
One could still measure time and sanction someway a disproportion of game time (e.g. when one player spends 15 minutes a turn and his opponent more than one hour)...
I think that it is very difficult to find a good way to do it in a simple way, as each scenario has its dynamics.

So only the sense of sportmanship and of respect can preside such situations.
 

Actionjick

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How can one adress the problem of an excessively slow player who leads to the decision of the win with a dr?
Perhaps chess clocks don't solve it, but the problem remains.
One could still measure time and sanction someway a disproportion of game time (e.g. when one player spends 15 minutes a turn and his opponent more than one hour)...
I think that it is very difficult to find a good way to do it in a simple way, as each scenario has its dynamics.

So only the sense of sportmanship and of respect can preside such situations.
It does seem very difficult which is what lead to my starting this thread. I was curious what means were used to allocate the time in an equitable manner and how much time should be allotted per scenario. Do you simply split the time evenly, base it on the OB of each player, MF and MP for each OB? Does Strayer's Strays get more time than Traverse Right, Fire!? Just thoughts about how much more difficult it is for ASL than chess.
 

Robin Reeve

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From a psychogical point of view, I hate to make my opponent wait.
Some "brain freeze" times are unavoidable, of course, but I consider that my time is my opponent's too.
Taking "all my time" is actually taking his.
And I want my opponent to have fun and to feel respected.

In a tournament, time is part of the constraints.
Wasting it is not playing along the rules.
Better organise non tournament meetings if one won't take that aspect seriously enough. And it is absolutely fine to make such a choice.
 

Actionjick

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I agree that it can be boring for a very fast player to be matched with a very slow one. But keep in mind that a very slow player will likey not enjoy playing a very fast one either. It works both ways.

IMHO the best way to solve this the following:
First, the players should attempt amongst themselves to find a way to reach a decision.
If they cannot, then the game needs to be judged. Either by the TD or by experienced players(s) assigned by the TD. Those who judge will listen to both sides for up two minutes why each thinks it should win. Then the judges will decide, and naturally, there's no 'appeal'.

I know that some people frown on judging games, but I think it is less arbitrary than a decision by DR.

von Marwitz
If I were involved in such a situation I would prefer it to be judged. If the judge couldn't decide then let the dice gods decide.
 

Jazz

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It does seem very difficult which is what lead to my starting this thread. I was curious what means were used to allocate the time in an equitable manner and how much time should be allotted per scenario. Do you simply split the time evenly, base it on the OB of each player, MF and MP for each OB? Does Strayer's Strays get more time than Traverse Right, Fire!? Just thoughts about how much more difficult it is for ASL than chess.
The formula we have used:
For each turn in the game, for each side:
  • Allocate 30 seconds for each personnel (SMC or MMC) counter
  • Allocate 60 seconds for each vehicle
Both sides get their own clock.

Clock runs:
  • During Prep Fire, Adv Fire (shooting player's clock)
  • During Movement (Moveing players clock)
  • During D-Fire (DFF, SFF, DFPh Defending player's clock)
  • During Advance Phase (advancing player's clock)
Clock stopped:
  • Resolving attacks
  • Rulz dives
  • Rout Phase
 

Actionjick

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From a psychogical point of view, I hate to make my opponent wait.
Some "brain freeze" times are unavoidable, of course, but I consider that my time is my opponent's too.
Taking "all my time" is actually taking his.
And I want my opponent to have fun and to feel respected.

If a tournament, time is part of the constraints.
Wasting it is not playing along the rules.
Better organise non tournament meetings if one won't take that aspect seriously enough. And it is absolutely fine to make such a choice.
Nice points.

My first SL opponent, Dr. Marc, would occasionally get lost in contemplation of the situation. It wasn't really brain freeze he was just enjoying the moment! Since he was providing the " refreshments " I really didn't care.
 

zgrose

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Do you simply split the time evenly, base it on the OB of each player, MF and MP for each OB? Does Strayer's Strays get more time than Traverse Right, Fire!? Just thoughts about how much more difficult it is for ASL than chess.
One way the chess clocks help with game speed, in chess, is that one gets more time when a certain stage is reached. So players are encouraged to do something with their time and if they do things they are rewarded with more time. And of course some turns are easier to play through than others. So maybe the clock isn't so much for the game length, but for the time between things happening... Just as an example, you get up to 5 minutes between each game action you take.
 

Actionjick

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The formula we have used:
For each turn in the game, for each side:
  • Allocate 30 seconds for each personnel (SMC or MMC) counter
  • Allocate 60 seconds for each vehicle
Both sides get their own clock.

Clock runs:
  • During Prep Fire, Adv Fire (shooting player's clock)
  • During Movement (Moveing players clock)
  • During D-Fire (DFF, SFF, DFPh Defending player's clock)
  • During Advance Phase (advancing player's clock)
Clock stopped:
  • Resolving attacks
  • Rulz dives
  • Rout Phase
Excellent information!! Thanks! Since you stated upthread that you enjoyed using a clock I assume this worked well. 🤗🤗
 

Jazz

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Excellent information!! Thanks! Since you stated upthread that you enjoyed using a clock I assume this worked well. 🤗🤗
Seemed to? Both players involved were pretty quick players. I don't recall either one of us running out of time, but both felt time pressured to make decisions for movement/Prep Fire/D-Fire. After doing it a few times you learn budget time and devote relatively little time/thought to things like approaching to contact....

It's been a long time since we played with a clock and I've only been able to talk one opponent into playing with one....which is a shame now that there are good chess clock apps on a lot of phones. Hardest part before that was finding a check clock that would allow you to easily stop the clock so nobody's clock was counting down.
 

Actionjick

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If I’m playing at home take your time, if we are playing in a tournament move it along. My view is ASL is a fly by the seat of your pants with rapid decisions type of game.
I totally agree with you and Jazz. Much more in the spirit of the game IMO. Even playing at home we tended to move it along barring the occasional breaks to make more coffee or FOBA.
 
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