Canadian Troops

mccann98

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Nebraska
Country
llUnited States
Ok. Have a couple of questions regarding Canadian troops.

1) Are Canadians treated as British in regard to not cowering for elite and 1st line troops?

2) Do Canadian troops receive the -1 bonus as British troops do in Heat of Battle rolls?

Thanks.
 

Russell Williams

Potatoe Peeler 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
198
Reaction score
35
Location
Ontario
Country
llCanada
A25.4:

1. Yes
2. Yes

Canadians are considered elite with some exceptions for less well trained troops. I think this was a big can of worms a few years ago. God, I miss Jim McLeod.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,951
Reaction score
1,786
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Remember that the base troops are not British but Commonwealth. Canadian, Australian, Indian and South African troops all get lumped in. We try not to think about the New Zealanders.
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,132
Reaction score
1,126
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llRussia
Also, I believe there is a separate HOB chart for South Africans...
12 surrender
11 berserk
<= 10 Arrogance (morale increased by one, and will not follow any form of leadership direction)

And Yorkshiremen have one to
12 surrender
11 pub
<=10 Know it all (morale increased by one, do exactly the opposite as the nearest friendly unit does due to their inherant belief that they can do it the right way/a better way and must charge the nearest enemy unit shouting "slow down, slab t'stone, or I'll kick yer backdooor")

EXC. Morale is increased by 5 if the company bugler is playing the Hovis theme tune
 
Last edited:

mgtaylor

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
41
Reaction score
2
Location
Council Bluffs, Ia
Country
llUnited States
I respectfully disagree with Mr Williams. A25.4 simply tells me that all commonwealth troops will use the British counter mix. A7.9 Cowering: This gives a list of situations and unit types (about half way down) that are exempt from cowering. It states British Elite and 1st Line Unit, it doesn't say 'all commonwealth' or 'and commonwealth units'. Specifically British Units only. A25.45 states the reason, their calmness under fire (or "moral fiber ") as they termed in (the British people) which they alone showed in battle.

As far as the second question; commonwealth units in A25.4 are considered elite troops and for the HOB roll receive the -1 drm for being elite but not an additional -1 for being British, only the British receive both if the British are also Elite. Once agian the British are specifically separated out as in the above paragraph.
 
Last edited:

Fort

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
5,632
Reaction score
917
Location
virginia
Country
llUnited States
I respectfully disagree with Mr Williams. A25.4 simply tells me that all commonwaelth troops will use the British countermix. A7.9 Cowering: This gives a list of situations and unit types (about half way down) that are exempt from cowering. It states British Elite and 1st Line Unit, it doesn't say 'all commonwealth' or 'and commonweath units'. Specificly British Units only. A25.45 states the reason, their calmness under fire (or "moral fiber ") as they termed in (the British people) which they alone showed in battle.

As far as the second question commonwealth in A25.4 are considered elite troops and for the HOB roll receive the -1 drm for being elite but not an additional -1 for being British, only the British receive both if the British are also Elite. Once agian the British are specificly seperated out as in the above paragraph.
Canadian Elite and 1st Line do not Cower.

25.4 BRITISH: British troops also encompass all “Commonwealth”, Free French, and liberated forces. Guardsmen, Gurkha, ANZAC (Australian and New Zealand), and Free French/Polish forces should generally be regarded as elite troops, as should Canadian units—all of which were composed of volunteers rather than draftees. Colonial troops such as the King’s African Rifles and pre-44 Indian troops in India and Burma should be considered 2nd Line troops represented by 4-4-7 squads. See 25.53 for Free French.


25.45 COWERING: British troops were renowned for their marksmanship and calmness under fire (or “Moral Fibre” as they termed it). Therefore, their elite and 1st Line units are immune to Cowering effects [EXC: Free French; 25.53].

-No EXC for Canadians or any other Commonwealth troops.

25.53 FREE FRENCH: Use British counters and rules for Free French Personnel [EXC: Free French squads have Assault Fire (7.36) capability in/after 12/43; the 25.45 immunity to cowering never applies to Free French]. Free French OBA (including Accuracy and Draw Pile) is always treated as if British [EXC: DYO purchase; 25.57]. See also 25.35 and 25.54-.57 and the French section of Chapter H.
 

mgtaylor

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
41
Reaction score
2
Location
Council Bluffs, Ia
Country
llUnited States
Once again I respectfully disagree, A25.4 tells me two things 1) All commonwealth nations use British counters and 2) Most of these troops are concidered elite for the -1 HOB drm.

A7.9 Specifically list British Elite and 1st Line Unit (not troops), it doesn't say 'all commonwealth' or 'and commonwealth units'. This is a specific list and commonweath troops are nor mentioned.
 

skarper

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
449
Reaction score
78
Location
Vietnam
Country
ll
The British and Commonwealth just got a straight rehash from SL-COD. Shame really.

I'm sure ALL UK & C get all the same characteristics as 'BRITISH'.
 

mgtaylor

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
41
Reaction score
2
Location
Council Bluffs, Ia
Country
llUnited States
I respect your opinions and I have talked with many Tournament leaders over the many years I have played the game, I have gotten about a 50 50 mix on this subject. JUst like the rule that VBP strips concealment.
 

Michael Dorosh

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
14,081
Reaction score
854
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
A7.9 Specifically list British Elite and 1st Line Unit (not troops), it doesn't say 'all commonwealth' or 'and commonwealth units'. This is a specific list and commonweath troops are nor mentioned.
"British" is the ASL word for "Commonwealth". It's the same thing as far as the rulebook is concerned. Fort highlighted it for you above.

British troops also encompass all “Commonwealth”, Free French, and liberated forces.

Period, full stop. In terms of the rulebook, any time you see the word "British" it means "Canadian".
 

mgtaylor

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
41
Reaction score
2
Location
Council Bluffs, Ia
Country
llUnited States
Then why are both the words British and Commonwealth used if not for the reason to single them out when needed. Why not just use the word Commonweath everywhere.
 

Michael Dorosh

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
14,081
Reaction score
854
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Then why are both the words British and Commonwealth used if not for the reason to single them out when needed. Why not just use the word Commonweath everywhere.
You'd have to slip into your hottub time machine and go back to 1984 and ask the guy who wrote the rule book. Or, actually, 1979, and the guy who wrote the COD rule book. Honestly? "British" is shorter.

Why do people call The Netherlands "Holland" when "Holland" is just one province of the country?
 

Michael Dorosh

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
14,081
Reaction score
854
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Canadians are considered elite with some exceptions for less well trained troops.
Note that the "elite" status of Canadian troops (and the others, mentioned in the ASLRB) is a scenario design suggestion. As it turns out, not necessarily a good one as far as the Canadians go, as historically the Canadians didn't perform - for the most part - any better or any worse than other "British" troops. On Hong Kong they may have been better than their counterparts in the garrison, but they were noted for their poor quality, and the Canadians were also untrained garrison troops themselves - though that may be an ELR rather than a morale issue. Otherwise, they were mostly solid and dependable but I don't think ever a real "elite", with perhaps the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion an exception. You might make a case for 3rd Cdn Inf Div on D-Day, but they quickly wore down with over-use after that. But as you note, Jim McLeod was able to make a convincing argument for elite status, IIRC, and there is no "correct" answer.

The wording of the "British" rule is actually kind of clumsy in several respects and open to tricky interpretations as we see in this thread.

There are a few good ASL related articles on the British in ASL - Charles Markuss had a masterpiece in Volume 25, No.6 of the General, and a revised article saw print in the Journal, spread over numbers 6 and 7. Steven Swann wrote three articles on British special forces in ASL (two in the General and one in the ASL Annual). My own on the Canadians in ASL also appeared in an Annual.
 

Fort

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
5,632
Reaction score
917
Location
virginia
Country
llUnited States
Once again I respectfully disagree, A25.4 tells me two things 1) All commonwealth nations use British counters and 2) Most of these troops are concidered elite for the -1 HOB drm.

A7.9 Specifically list British Elite and 1st Line Unit (not troops), it doesn't say 'all commonwealth' or 'and commonwealth units'. This is a specific list and commonweath troops are nor mentioned.
You are incorrect....period, end of sentence.
I know for a fact you are wrong, if the examples I have posted above are not enough for you, then write a question to MMP....
You're obviously stuck on your beliefs that you have read this correctly that nothing anyone here can say to you will convince you..but here is one last try:

'British troops also encompass all “Commonwealth”, Free French, and liberated forces.'
This statement makes 'Commonwealth' a subset of 'British'.

'British troops were renowned for their marksmanship and calmness under fire (or “Moral Fibre” as they termed it). Therefore, their elite and 1st Line units are immune to Cowering effects [EXC: Free French; 25.53].'
This statement makes all British troops, of which 'Commonwealth' troops are INCLUDED...immunity to Cowering. The part about the 'Free Frech' being excluded AND NO OTHER COMMONWEALTH troops is absolute proof. If as you believe that 'Commonwealth troops' are not immune to Cowering, why the EXC for Free French Commonwealth troops.
The exception proves the rule, otherwise there is no need for it.

And 50% of your tournament directors are wrong as well....
 
Last edited:

Pitman

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,641
Reaction score
1,003
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
In ASL terms, British = all commonwealth. It does not distinguish between them, except in certain specific and narrow circumstances (ANZAC being stealthy).
 
Top