Canadian Troops

trevpr1

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Then why are both the words British and Commonwealth used if not for the reason to single them out when needed. Why not just use the word Commonweath everywhere.
Because it's title was the British Commonwealth.
 

sarfs

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It's like referring to Canada as "Ontario".

Oh, wait, the people of Ontario really do think that they define and represent all that is Canadian! :nuts:
I thought that was the mushheads in Quebec that thought that way.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I thought that was the mushheads in Quebec that thought that way.
If you're referring to the Québécois, trying to separate from Canada is entirely different from defining and representing all that is Canadian; it's actually about 100 percent the opposite. Of course, not every Québécois is a separatist, nor is every Quebecker a francophone. Come to that, there are plenty of anglophone and allophone "mushheads" in Quebec too, though I don't know that they define and represent all that is Canadian either. Unless being a mushhead is in itself the Canadian essence.
 

Kevin Kenneally

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The Canadians soldiers of WWII were treated very 'un-fairly' by their brothers in England; always given the 'shitty assignments, while the 'Pommies' sat and drank 'tea'.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The Canadians soldiers of WWII were treated very 'un-fairly' by their brothers in England; always given the 'shitty assignments, while the 'Pommies' sat and drank 'tea'.
I wouldn't say this is true. The Canadians volunteered for Dieppe enthusiastically and were responsible for the planning and execution of the raid, though later writers have assigned the "blame" to Mountbatten and Combined Operations.

The Canadians had volunteered for earlier missions such as Norway and France 1940, but there wasn't room for them; 1st Division did go to France in June 1940 but wisely was withdrawn before making contact with the enemy. So the British were cautious enough with them then.

The Canadians were not needed in North Africa, but were permitted to send individuals there on rotations to get battle experience, in a very successful plan. Also successful was CANLOAN, where surplus junior officers in the infantry and ordnance corps were sent to the British - over 600 in all - to fight in Italy and later NW Europe.

The 1st Division was given plum assignments in Sicily, and as the only division there that hadn't also served in North Africa, was also given extra time to rest and acclimate right after the landings by Montgomery. They were given hard missions, but they also accomplished them. They fit in well with 8th Army and were treated well in an atmosphere of mutual respect. When 1st Armoured Brigade and later 5th Armoured Division joined them in theatre, they also came to earn the respect of 8th Army.

3rd Canadian Division in NW Europe was another story; their commander was weak, and the struggle to get into Caen is well chronicled. But II Canadian Corps commander was a Montgomery protege, and his counsel on how to deal with Keller was heeded. 2nd Division did not perform up to expectations once ashore either, but I think the official Army historian is far too harsh with them, as was their own divisional commander in his post-war assessment. 4th Canadian Armoured Division also committed some blunders, but these were not the fault of the British. Montgomery was not initially a fan of General Crerar, who activated 1st Canadian Army in August - Monty wanted things done his way. He laughed that Crerar made his first mistake on assuming command that morning and the second after lunch, but eventually, the two worked well together, though there was a major blip when Crerar refused to attend a briefing on the same day the Canadians had a memorial at recently liberated Dieppe cemetery.

The closest your assessment comes to being true is Antwerp, where the British failed to push on and secure the Scheldt Estuary - all 64 km of it - after capturing the vital port intact. Failure to do so gave the Germans time to move a garrison in and cost the Canadians a month of heavy fighting in the Breskens Pocket and the South Beveland peninsula. But British forces were involved here too, ditto Polish and Americans, and it was the British that liberated Walcheren Island. And hindsight is 20/20. Montgomery gets far too much stick for his caution; Antwerp and the Scheldt happened just as Arnhem was being planned and executed. One can forgive some operational caution along other areas of the front as that massive gamble was playing out.

2nd British Army saw extensive fighting alongside 1st Canadian Army throughout the NW Europe campaign - in actual fact the latter at one point had more British troops in it than the British 8th Army did at El Alamein. Whatever fighting the Canadians saw was mostly accident of geography; the paths of the armies had been set out by the OVERLORD plan and COSSAC well before the first soldier landed in Normandy. It wasn't a case of unfair treatment by the British so much as operational priorities being set by where the Germans decided to defend - you can probably "blame" the broad front policy as much as anything. I think it is safe to say that the Canadians and British were equally inconvenienced by the war.
 

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<snipped some info>
The closest your assessment comes to being true is Antwerp, where the British failed to push on and secure the Scheldt Estuary - all 64 km of it - after capturing the vital port intact. Failure to do so gave the Germans time to move a garrison in and cost the Canadians a month of heavy fighting in the Breskens Pocket and the South Beveland peninsula. But British forces were involved here too, ditto Polish and Americans, and it was the British that liberated Walcheren Island. And hindsight is 20/20. Montgomery gets far too much stick for his caution; Antwerp and the Scheldt happened just as Arnhem was being planned and executed. One can forgive some operational caution along other areas of the front as that massive gamble was playing out.
<snipped some info>
I think it is safe to say that the Canadians and British were equally inconvenienced by the war.
The Scheldt Estuary fighting WAS my main source of complaint.
 

ASLSARGE

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<snip> Why do people call The Netherlands "Holland" when "Holland" is just one province of the country?
Actually, it is two provinces....North Holland and South Holland...but let's not get too picky here. :)

Back on topic....Brits, Canucks, Kiwis....same same. Fort's explanation is right on, and well substantiated from the most holy tome.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The Scheldt Estuary fighting WAS my main source of complaint.
I thought it might be. I appreciate you are more well-read than your easy-going posting style sometimes lets on. :) I wouldn't be too harsh on them. Imagine planning the largest airbone operation of the war - of recorded history - which was totally out of character for Montgomery to begin with, and then at the same time - thinking he might stick his neck out on a narrow peninsula like South Beveland, especially after the equally uncharacteristic breakneck run from the Seine to Brussels. What was it was said - that when the Arnhem operation was described, it was so flabbergasting they couldn't have been more surprised had the teetotaling Montgomery shown up at SHAEF HQ roaring drunk. I think you could maybe say the same about expecting a bold advance from Antwerp simultaneous to Arnhem.
 

trevpr1

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The Canadians soldiers of WWII were treated very 'un-fairly' by their brothers in England; always given the 'shitty assignments, while the 'Pommies' sat and drank 'tea'.
Should have seen what went on after WWI. Over a year after the war ended there were Canadians in camps in the UK still waiting to be taken home.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Should have seen what went on after WWI. Over a year after the war ended there were Canadians in camps in the UK still waiting to be taken home.
Draftees who got into it after 40,000 volunteers had already been killed in 1915-1917? Boo hoo.

A little decompression never hurt anyone. The alternative was taking a corps' worth of killing machines, giving them zero debriefing (that's what they got, incidentally) and throwing them back into civilian life.

Actually, I do believe the Khaki University was something of a success overseas, come to that.
 

trevpr1

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Draftees who got into it after 40,000 volunteers had already been killed in 1915-1917? Boo hoo.

A little decompression never hurt anyone. The alternative was taking a corps' worth of killing machines, giving them zero debriefing (that's what they got, incidentally) and throwing them back into civilian life.

Actually, I do believe the Khaki University was something of a success overseas, come to that.
Was it any way to treat people who defended your country by interring them for a year? Lives were lost because of it. Riot at Kinmel camp.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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Was it any way to treat people who defended your country by interring them for a year? Lives were lost because of it.
I can't judge them 100 years after the fact. On the face of it, I have little sympathy for indisciplined rabble who riot against orders. My regiment mobilized the 10th Battalion in 1914, fought in every major Canadian battle of the war, and was demobbed and home in Calgary by April 1919. The problem wasn't pettiness, just shipping space. So it wasn't over a year for everyone; the last ones over waited their turn like everyone else. The Yanks waited too. Men got a decent wage. The 10th Battalion didn't take part in the riots - good disciplined units in the trenches found that their discipline followed them after the war. And only five men died at Kinmel Park, the worst of the rampages. Tragic? Maybe. More men die today on drunken benders on Labour Day weekend driving home. Every year. Despite the ad campaigns.

And then came the Spanish flu, which killed more people than the war. They would have been safer in the trenches.
 

Roadtogundagai

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In ASL terms, British = all commonwealth. It does not distinguish between them, except in certain specific and narrow circumstances (ANZAC being stealthy).
The ANZAC stealth bonus is an interesting one. It gives them a chance to turn the tables on the Japanese in the jungle and play "silly buggers" in Kunai / Jungle / Bamboo. Nothing like sticking some Japanese on the end of a Lee-Enfield bayonet.
 

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Not only did many WW-I vets have to wait for extended periods to de-mob but a few, like my wife's G-pa, were sent to Russia to "guard" supplies. In fact it was there where he earned his wound stripe-and he didn't return to the U.S. until 1920. And then had to fight (politically) for their bonuses and other benefits. WW-I vets were some of the worst treated veterans of the "modern" era (at least from the perspective of the U.S. - and from what I've read not much better anywhere else by other nations as well).:salute:
 

Michael Dorosh

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Not only did many WW-I vets have to wait for extended periods to de-mob but a few, like my wife's G-pa, were sent to Russia to "guard" supplies. In fact it was there where he earned his wound stripe-and he didn't return to the U.S. until 1920. And then had to fight (politically) for their bonuses and other benefits. WW-I vets were some of the worst treated veterans of the "modern" era (at least from the perspective of the U.S. - and from what I've read not much better anywhere else by other nations as well).:salute:
I don't mean to brush off Trevor's concerns about World War I veterans, and you raise legit concerns also. I alluded to the same - veterans of the First World War came home with nothing in the way of psychological counselling, when they finally did get home. I just don't think anyone should think there was anything wilfull about it. We can't judge them by the standards of today. They honestly didn't know any better. They were still shooting people for "cowardice" (the Australians, notably, refused to), and you know, they felt very justified in doing it. I'm not positive we have the right to feel any moral outrage at that 100 years later. We could spend the next milennia reinventing ourselves - I hope we do, really - but we could also spend the next 1,000 years second guessing everything we ever did in the past as a society, too. It would be fruitless. Yes, we need to acknowledge that shooting those poor bastards was the wrong thing to do. But condemning the ones that did it solves nothing; they were acting in good faith. The more enlightened we become and the longer ago that becomes, the harder that is to accept, but so be it.

It's the same as the treatment of the other veterans. Society in general was a harsher place. The social safety net we enjoy now didn't exist then; it's harder to view their treatment through an accurate lens, now that we have cradle to grave insurance. With veterans today getting the GI Bill and pensions and all deservedly so, after six, nine, twelve month tours of duty in combat zones, it's hard to compare that to what was routinely expected in 1918 - service "for the duration".

My mom's uncle served in the Pacific (Aleutian Islands) and later the Netherlands with the Canadian Army in the Second World War. He was not a volunteer so he never got the CVSM medal. He came home in 1945, and they kept him in hospital for another year with TB before discharging him. I don't imagine he was too happy about things. He died of cancer in the, I believe 1950s, at age 38. Lots of sad stories.
 

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I have always played all Commonwealth troops as "British", due to (not only the rules) their similar training background and equipment. I never read into the rules that deeply, I assumed British automatically equated to ANY dominion troops, i.e. no cowering, etc.
 

trevpr1

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The ANZAC stealth bonus is an interesting one. It gives them a chance to turn the tables on the Japanese in the jungle and play "silly buggers" in Kunai / Jungle / Bamboo. Nothing like sticking some Japanese on the end of a Lee-Enfield bayonet.
And have you EVER heard of a quiet Australian? Hmm? Hmm?

I think not!
 

synicbast

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And have you EVER heard of a quiet Australian? Hmm? Hmm?

I think not!
They're usuually very quiet around End of Year Rugby League Finals, Tri-Nations and Bledisloe Cup matches, Super 15 games against real scrums, Netball gold medal games, and lately Ashes Test matches, I've found.
 

BattleSchool

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Netball gold medal games...
Well done P! You've managed to slip Netball into an ASL thread for the first time, in what, three years. ;)

But then, the Silver Ferns did grab the Gold last October, didn't they, you sheep in 'roo's clothing. :D
 
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