ASL outside the traditional WWII period

ASL for what wars/periods?


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spwhites

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This poll is an attempt to gage your interest in playing ASL to simulate periods outside of WWII:

  • Any war with bullets
  • WWI
  • pre-1939 (e.g. Spanish Civil War)
  • 1939-1945 only
  • Korean War
  • Vietnam War
 

Barryrk

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I voted for all but WW1-can't see enduring Art strikes, firelanes etc in a trench then hearing the whistle togo over the top- German Stosstroop (sp) tactics maybe... :hmmm:
 

Michael Dorosh

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We've had multiple discussions on this. My answer is simple - any war in which the armies involved used the squad as the basic unit of maneuver. That includes the First World War from about 1916 onwards (before that, the company was the basic unit of maneuver, with some exceptions).

A search may yield some discussion points on this, but mostly I think one notable and now mostly departed forum member blew a bunch of hot air and tried to avoid serious discussion of pre- and post- Second World War ASL by making a bunch of pronouncements without any kind of rational defence of his position.

I've seen what a couple of Modern ASL and Korean ASL groups have been working on and I think that people will really like what they see - they are consistent with the spirit of ASL and in fact, there is a real effort to keep it that way.

That can be done for the First World War as well, but only for those periods in which the armies organized tactically along squad-based lines. In the British Army, this happened after the Somme, which was the great watershed. The French started using assault-tactics earlier than that, but not across the board. The Germans also started feeling their way into stosstruppen somewhere around the middle of the war. But I don't think you could comfortably fit their tactical organizations into a squad-based game. Or rather, a simulation. As a game, well, any game like ASL that has such things as LMG counters and bizarre OOB combinations as it does, you can probably get away with anything. But I'd start it out in 1916 or even 1917 just to be safe. If you want to play 1914-15, play Soldiers by SPI instead.

Given that all armies after 1945 adopted the squad, I think any conflict is fair game after the war, though perhaps the half squad needs to be increased in capability and firepower to reflect tactical training and lower level leadership - the Strategic Corporal that General Krulak talked about. I keep telling my bosses in the Militia that I am one, and I think they are starting to believe me.
 

DerBlitzer

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The scenarios I've seen that depict battles from other wars never seem to have anything particularly interesting about them that make them feel they're presenting a different time period. They're usually just squads against squads, on a familiar map. Mostly what suggests the time period is the intro and aftermath paragraphs.

I would be interested in playing ASL-based modules for other time periods, but for me, it would need to contain new weapons, vehicles, etc, new boards, and some new rules to suggest this other period. Helicopters would be very interesting, for example, in both attacking and transporting. Or wire-guided ordnance (from the Six Day War, if I remember), or ground attacks from jets, and so on.
 

fwheel73

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We've had multiple discussions on this. My answer is simple - any war in which the armies involved used the squad as the basic unit of maneuver. That includes the First World War from about 1916 onwards (before that, the company was the basic unit of maneuver, with some exceptions).
[big snip]
Given that all armies after 1945 adopted the squad, I think any conflict is fair game after the war, though perhaps the half squad needs to be increased in capability and firepower to reflect tactical training and lower level leadership - the Strategic Corporal that General Krulak talked about. I keep telling my bosses in the Militia that I am one, and I think they are starting to believe me.
Michael said it well! No need to add more.
Best regards,:salute:
John
 

RobZagnut

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WWI is too early. Vietnam is too late. Have no interest whatsoever in those two being turned into ASL. Everything in between works for me.
 

ecz

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This poll is an attempt to gage your interest in playing ASL to simulate periods outside of WWII:

  • Any war with bullets
  • WWI
  • pre-1939 (e.g. Spanish Civil War)
  • 1939-1945 only
  • Korean War
  • Vietnam War
I'm not interested in anything tactical but WWII. Even if at squad and single man/vehicle level I like WWII subject only. And, BTW, Spanish civil War (and Japanese-Chinese conflict pre-1939) belong to WWII according the definition of WWII I agree more.
 

footsteps

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WWI is too early. Vietnam is too late. Have no interest whatsoever in those two being turned into ASL. Everything in between works for me.
Agree too. I'd love to see GC and G48 (or something similar) as MMP products, but I know it won't happen.

Alan
 

prymus

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I have a very slight interest in WWI, but am not really sure I would buy an ASL type game covering it.
As for Viet Nam,I have always steered clear of ANY Nam games.I just don't think I could handle opening a game that may have a scenario in it that covers a battle that my Foster Brother died in. I lost a few friends over there also, and just would not be comfortable with "gaming" a battle where my friends were killed or wounded.This is just my opinion though.
I must say that I have met gentlemen at historical miniatures conventions that are gaming WWII situations and are WWII Veterans.Struck me as odd,but I'm not going to judge these men.Perhaps they were gung ho for shooting some more Nazi's or Emperor's men. Plus I don't know if these men were PTO vets and "playing" ETO, or visa versa.I remember a short running article in MWAN about this subject,whether the Viet Nam conflict was to fresh in the memory to game or not.I think its a rather interesting subject,but perhaps not appropriate for these forums.
But needless to say I did not vote for a Southeast Asia expansion.
 

Manilianus

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I would love to see ASL cover any modern warfare - and by modern I mean anything from 1914 up to date. The system has potential and is so flexible that with minor tweaks here and there absolutely any "modern" battle could be portrayed. It could really spawn endless possibilities. Come on, let's go from WW II, back and forth. ASL is THE definite system, let's rock the planet!

WW I is underestimated, and could be put on the first place, cause majority of people think of Great War as of trench war for 5 meters of ground. Almost everyone, when asked about Verdun, or Gallipoli, says about masses of armies rolling the front, lacking the knowledge of a dynamic platoon/company/battalion battles - Rommel's charge on Monte Matajur for example.

And the Polish-Soviet War is great idea, but I'm not objective here :).
 

jrv

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Second Italo-Abyssinian War: Mustard gas!
Ecuadorian-Peruvian War: "The Peruvian army had at its disposal a battalion of armor made up of Czech tanks, with artillery and air support. They had also established a paratroop unit in the region and used it to great effect by seizing the Ecuadorian port city of Puerto Bolívar, on July 27, 1941, in what was actually the first instance of airborne troop deployment in the Southern Hemisphere."--Wikipedia

JR
 

jrv

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Chaco War (Paraguay and Bolivia): "Paraguayans were able to send trained native guinea pigs carrying messages as a sort of messenger pigeon back and forth between lines of military operation, thus helping the war effort."--Wikipedia

We so need a guinea pig counter!

JR
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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I would like to comment on this topic, speaking as the project manager of the Korean War module that we are planning to submit to MMP.

There are a few conditions that are required to fit into the ASL paradigm:
1. The squad is the basic tactical unit.
2. The technology of the weaponry is from the 20th century.
3. Combatants openly bear arms. ASL will not work for the typical counterinsurgency/ irregular warfare scenario where one side uses civilians as concealment.
4. Forces are least company-sized and engaged in conventional ground combat. ASL will not work for terrorist attacks, sabotage, and many types of special operations.

Clearly, the ASL paradigm fits the Spanish Civil War, the Korean War, the Arab-Israeli Wars up through the initial phase of the 1982 war, the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pakistani Wars, to a limited extent the French and American wars in Indochina, South Africa vs. Cuba, Ethiopia vs. Somalia, to a limited extent WWI and the follow-on wars, the Falklands War and so on. I'm not sure how some of the early 20th Century wars such as the Russian Civil War fit the paradigm, or the French in Algeria.

As for what conflicts should be covered, I would look for several things:
1. Appeal to the market, which is primarily but not exclusively American. All other things being equal, the Korean War or the Arab-Israeli wars are going to evoke greater interest than the Ethiopians vs. the Somalians.
2. Some semblance of play balance. Operation Desert Storm does not have the makings of an interesting module.
3. Something interesting and different, in terms of weapons, nationality characteristics or terrain. For example, in the Korean War module the big innovations are the Korean terrain rules and accompanying mapboards, and the Chinese Communist Forces.

On the subject, we are looking for a few playtesters who will commit to play at least two scenarios a month and write AARs. If interested, please contact me at:

kpkatz (at) alum (dot) mit (dot) edu
 

spwhites

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Kenneth- very interesting post and good luck with your project. From the results of the poll so far, it looks like you might have quite a few takers...
:salute:
 

rottenroller

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So, if ASL visits the Vietnam War era, how much IFE do the AC-47, AC-119, AC-123
and AC-130 gun ships get?
 
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