VotG CG IV - Stalingrad, 14-27 September

[Tater]

After having played two night scenarios in VotG CG IV I can assure you that the frontline has been pretty much lit up all over. This also means that I know how many SS attemps that usually are allowed. A little over 20 (double stacked+) hexes with leaders is 20 SS on 1-4 and ~30 infantry hexes/AFV's without leaders means around 25 successful SS placements. If you are afraid of getting attacked in CC you simply place the starshell on the SS firing unit, which means that it only scatters one hex.

Sounds good...but in fact it seldom works out perfectly for starshell. Also there is the fact that in many cases the Ruski only needs to AM and then advance in order to get into CC...this is what happens when the perimeters start adjacent to each other. The only way to avoid this is to give up large chunks of real estate to the Ruski.

Take a look at my AAR for CG-1 to get an idea...
VotG / CG-1 / Scenario-1

FYI...after 3.5 tuns and coming in from off board I still have 16 active clokies. I have been eating the German up in CC mainly due to ambush (usually -3 vs +1 ambush DRM). Most of the noted German casualties are due to CC. It is also important to note that once the German started taking casualties (and breaking) his ability to generate starshells dropped precipotously...which lead to even more CC opportunities...a very vicious circle.

 

[pward]

Are they a viable buy even then? They cost as much as 4 regular stuka buys (IIRC). They might get overun and captured, they might jam, sniper might break a crew, and will they really protect you ground troops at all?
Janusz

Since it's got a printed IFE, you are limited to just Light AA (E7.51). 8 IFE gets you a star line number of 7. With a +2 DRM for the Stuka, to kill it you need an original 4 or less, a 5 results in a Damaged plane, and a 6 causes evasion. You have to get a result on the initial hex of attack to possibly avoid the bomb drop, since the Stuka attacks from it's position before AA fire against it.

The other options to the Russian is using one of the two available HMG, the standard one is 1 less on the star line, so original 3-4-5 for the results as above. Or if you get one, the .50 HMG is the same as the AA gun in Light AA effectiveness. I don't know about AAMG, but that sounds like a losing battle for the AFV if they even have AAMG to begin with.

Summary:
KIA is 3:36 for for the HMG and 6:36 for the .50 or 37L AA.
Damage is caused 3:36 for the HMG, the others 4:36.
Evasion is caused 4:36 for the HMG, the others 5:36.

If I'm reading it right, put 2 guns (or MG) in an entrenchment together with a good field of fire, so they can FG against planes (mandatory FG...). Two vanilla HMG make it to the 12 chart which nets a 1 better star line than the .50 or 37L. Two of the bigger guns together make a 16 chart, getting a star line of 9... Good odds at that point, but then again those HMG or AA guns aren't killing German squads if they are shooting Stukas.

 

[janusz.maxe]

I think FG vs an aircraft is NA.
Janusz

 

[James Taylor]

I think FG vs an aircraft is NA.
Janusz

I thought so tooo until a few weeks/months ago when 2-bit Bill sorted me out. From 7.5 AA Fire:

An AA-capable weapon marked with an AA counter (and AAMG firing at Aerial targets) may not form a FG [EXC: Mandatory FG; A7.55] or use a Fire Lane vs Aerial targets, nor may it use Subsequent First Fire/Intensive/Sustained Fire vs aircraft (or vs any ground target in that Player Turn).​

If you have multiple MG's in the same hex they not only can FG they must. Cannot form multiple hex FG's however.

JT

 

[DaveT]

Since it's got a printed IFE, you are limited to just Light AA (E7.51). 8 IFE gets you a star line number of 7. With a +2 DRM for the Stuka, to kill it you need an original 4 or less, a 5 results in a Damaged plane, and a 6 causes evasion. You have to get a result on the initial hex of attack to possibly avoid the bomb drop, since the Stuka attacks from it's position before AA fire against it.
...
aren't killing German squads if they are shooting Stukas.

To me that rule seems to be saying that a Stuka making a point attack gets to make both MG attacks and the bomb drop before any possible light AA fire.

I'm now wondering which way most people play this.

If the Stuka attacks the gun crew then they'll be pinned of course.

Dave

 

[pward]

To me that rule seems to be saying that a Stuka making a point attack gets to make both MG attacks and the bomb drop before any possible light AA fire.

I'm now wondering which way most people play this.

If the Stuka attacks the gun crew then they'll be pinned of course.

Dave

I read it as makes MG attack, suffers AA, moves forwards, makes MG attack, drops bomb, suffers AA, finishes run suffering AA however many times.

Normally it's the other way around, suffer AA, attack, move, repeat as needed for type of attack.

 

[Honza]

Hi Melvin and Shadowace,

I noticed that you two have not put the result of your CG up on ROAR. You should do that. The more results of VotG CG's that are recorded the better picture we will all have of the balance of them.

I'm still astonished at how balanced RB CGIII is. I think it is about 30 wins to each side at the moment.

 

[Stacks]

I noticed that you two have not put the result of your CG up on ROAR. You should do that. The more results of VotG CG's that are recorded the better picture we will all have of the balance of them.

http://www.aslratings.com/

The ROAR is hopeless to work with and therby ain´t really my first
choice to spend (waste) my time upon.

Report my games to the new and user-friendly site ASLRAtings.com
Will probably even be better as the years goes by.

Have played 91 scenarios this year + the 10 VotG CG scenarios and
still hasn´t had the time to report them to the ASLRAting.
Probably when the Summer-time is over.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

Hi Melvin and Shadowace,

I'm still astonished at how balanced RB CGIII is. I think it is about 30 wins to each side at the moment.

No insult of ROAR intended, but I would be willing to bet that those 60 playings represent less than 10% of the number of times RBCG3 has been played. To think its been played only 60 times in 20ish years is crazyness. I think Ive played it more than a dozen times to a result (far more that were never completed), and I bet there are a couple other forum regulars (Tate and Alan Bills) who have played it far more than I have.

Great AAR btw, Im getting fired up about starting mine soon.....as soon as I get high speed internet again.

 

[Tater]

No insult of ROAR intended, but I would be willing to bet that those 60 playings represent less than 10% of the number of times RBCG3 has been played. To think its been played only 60 times in 20ish years is crazyness. I think Ive played it more than a dozen times to a result (far more that were never completed), and I bet there are a couple other forum regulars (Tate and Alan Bills) who have played it far more than I have.

I suspect the ROAR balance is due to a lot of Ruski PMC failure. All things being equal, the Ruski should win...assuming he doesn't cave.

 

[Stacks]

The STAVKA and OKH summary reports for everything purchased,
received, casualities taken etc (see post #1).

 

[Stacks]

After reading some other great CG IV AAR (thanks), the conclusion that we made when starting this CG was that each CG day-light scenario is much larger in average than any other CG scenario played, the length of the CG may be
a little shorter than The Barrikady CG III but each day-light scenario is at least 50% larger (up to 100%) than a day-light scenario in The Barrikady.

Started to play The Barrikady CG III for 15 weeks ago and have now finished
15 CG dates (17/10-31/10) and is quite amazed how much faster it is played compared to when thinking back about the VotG CG IV.

When will we see a VotG CG IV campaign that reach into the last date, next year or more?

 

[Stacks]

No insult of ROAR intended, but I would be willing to bet that those 60 playings represent less than 10% of the number of times RBCG3 has been played. To think its been played only 60 times in 20ish years is crazyness. I think Ive played it more than a dozen times to a result (far more that were never completed), and I bet there are a couple other forum regulars (Tate and Alan Bills) who have played it far more than I have.

Great AAR btw, Im getting fired up about starting mine soon.....as soon as I get high speed internet again.

Played the Red Barricades CG III at least 60 times since 89´ (vs 9 different opponents) and is already planning to play another Red Barricades CG III next year and never report in to Roar unless my opponents have reported in all our playings without my knowledge

Anyhow if they would be reported in then the result should be about
40 Russian Victories vs 20 German Victories mostly due to the fact that
three of the opponents started to play as Germans in Red Barricades as
their first ASL experience (i.e., they learned to play ASL in Stalingrad) with
a given ABS level of "R8".

 

[janusz.maxe]

Few playings of RBIII last more than 10 dates. I think a minimum reaches 20. The chance of playing the last day with the outcome stillin doubt is so small, that I think most playings of last dates are more out of principle than competition.

VotGIV is 75-100% larger than RBIII, at least at start. So the amount of time to finish this is so much larger, and the pace of progress is so low, thus the drop-out rate will probably be much higher than RBIII. Then there's real-life problems popping up, making continious CG play for like 2+ years a big problem.

Being stubborn, refusing to give up, costs at least 50+ % more time in Votg than in RBIII.

Then there's so many more CGs and scenarios now than when RBIII came. VotG will probably never be the type of classic (or relic) that RB became, if for no other reason than the fierce CG-competition.

Maybe we will see someone playing the 27 sept date in 2113. Or never. Seriously.

Janusz

 

[Bob Holmstrom]

In our CGIV, we played one night a week and could do 2 turns a session sometimes 3 turns if we got to the end. Also one night for setup and maybe a turn at the beginning of each scenario.

We got about a scenario a month in, except for the initial scenario which took roughly 6 weeks to complete.

I figure about 15 scenarios for the whole campaign considering idle days and russian counterattacks, so about 15-18 months if the entire campaign is played out which it likely wont.

 

[Stacks]

Few playings of RBIII last more than 10 dates. I think a minimum reaches 20. The chance of playing the last day with the outcome stillin doubt is so small, that I think most playings of last dates are more out of principle than competition.
VotGIV is 75-100% larger than RBIII, at least at start. So the amount of time to finish this is so much larger, and the pace of progress is so low, thus the drop-out rate will probably be much higher than RBIII. Then there's real-life problems popping up, making continious CG play for like 2+ years a big problem.
Being stubborn, refusing to give up, costs at least 50+ % more time in Votg than in RBIII.
Then there's so many more CGs and scenarios now than when RBIII came. VotG will probably never be the type of classic (or relic) that RB became, if for no other reason than the fierce CG-competition.
Maybe we will see someone playing the 27 sept date in 2113. Or never. Seriously.

Good post,
In Red Barricades many CGs has ended after the first day 17/10 either the Germans has made a breakthrough and wiped the total Russian OB or the Russians gave the Germans such a bloody nose that the suffering player feels the need to give up and start over, In VotG that option will be taken less times and if it is taken both players would feel that the CG never moves forward since the first day is around 200% larger compared to the first day in The barrikady CG III.

Why did they make the CG so big is the reason that bigger is better then
why not make an even larger map and CG. Has the ultimate size been reached now or is it to big?

 

[Stacks]

Been reading all the AAR for 14-27 September CG IV VotG posted on this forum and here are
the stastics of how each CG went.

14 Sept. Day - Ended - Russian Victory
14 Sept. Day - Ended - German Victory
14 Sept. Day - ongoing ???
14 Sept. Night - Ongoing
14 Sept. Night - Ongoing
15 Sept. Day - Ended - German Victory
16 Sept. Day - Ended - Russian Victory
16 Sept. Day - Ended - German Victory
16 Sept. Day - Ended - German Victory
17 Sept. Day - Ongoing
20 Sept. Day - Ended - German Victory

Total: 5 German Victories vs 2 Russian Victories.

 

[=FC=Gorgon]

Did the CG end on the date listed?

tnx,
M

 

[Bob Miller]

I started a list with VotGs CG IV (and II) last year that tracked who was playing and how many CVP suffered by each side, thus naming the winning side for that first date. Goodness knows how buried that thread is. I think I had 10 or 11 games listed with at least the first date result. Some wide variations of results from what I remember.

What would be an interesting topic to research on VotGs is how long each game lasts before fizzling out. I think Melvin's from last fall was the only one to get past the 7th date. (Sept 20th) And then compare this rate to other CGs.

Bottom, line yes VotGs is bigger, much bigger than RB. And with a much higher early surrender/give up date I'd reckon.

I know my three playings (attempts) ended on Sept 16th midgame (German conceeds), Sept 14th day end (Russian conceeded as we agreed to a restart) and the restart went to Sept 15th end (where Russian conceeded again - we then started Purple Heart Draw and played that through it's entire 5 session length) I am proud to say, none of those concessions were mine.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

Two of them were mine:OHNO:


Bottom line, it sucks playing the Russians in VotG's, its tedious, your either getting the snot pounded outta ya or the Germans manage to find a weak spot in the Russian lines and break through, then its off to the races to gobble up ground.

The reason PhD was so much fun was because both sides had kewl toys from the start and both sides had a pretty good chance to bloody one another.

Personally, I would prefer RB over VotG, RB is pretty straight forward CG where as VotG's just has to many cute terrain SSR's and so on which makes it at least to me a real pain in the butt to play.

Scott