VotG CG IV - Stalingrad, 14-27 September

[Bob Holmstrom]

More scenarios = more CPP.

If you don't do the night counter-attacks then you play less scenarios, and therefore have less CPP to spend.

Mel indicates that he's not sure whether that might not be the more advantageous approach for the Russian.

Clearly, things didn't go his way this time.

Knowing his rep as a player I'm thinking this Shadowace guy must be pretty darn good as well.

JT

Jim,

Obviously it's more CPP, but it's more CPP for each side. What i was questioning was when Mel said:

"Then never conduct anymore counterattacks that would mean that you will receive about 60-70 CPP less than the German player..."

I'm not getting the math.

 

[James Taylor]

Jim,

Obviously it's more CPP, but it's more CPP for each side. What i was questioning was when Mel said:

"Then never conduct anymore counterattacks that would mean that you will receive about 60-70 CPP less than the German player..."

I'm not getting the math.

I see your point. To figure this out, one would need to do some total CPP calcs, based on the balance provisions kicking in, etc.

Perhaps it has to do with the 6 support CPP that the Germans get when attacking?

Would not suprise me if Mel has done the math here.... but just didn't *show his work*.

JT

 

[Bob Holmstrom]

I see your point. To figure this out, one would need to do some total CPP calcs, based on the balance provisions kicking in, etc.

Perhaps it has to do with the 6 support CPP that the Germans get when attacking?

Would not suprise me if Mel has done the math here.... but just didn't *show his work*.

JT

The Germans get the 6 support CPP whenever they choose an attack chit--which brings up the issue if the Germans should ever take an idle day--so the russian counterattacks don't impact that.

As far as balance provisions, both sides can game that if they want, but it could be something the russians can exploit for some extra CPP. I don't think it would be an extra 60-70CPP though.

But, you're right in that Mel's a smarter guy than i am and may have done some math i'm not thinking about.

 

[Tater]

If you don't do the night counter-attacks then you play less scenarios, and therefore have less CPP to spend.

But both sides will get more to spend with more scenarios.

The question is how does it effect the average CPP per scenario. I got to believe that on an average the Russian comes out ahead because the German only gets the support CPP when he is the attacker. So that is 6CPP every other scenario that he doesn't get. So versus a Russian who never counter attacks the German average CPP per scenario is going to be pretty high.

So let's assume an average of 17CPP (a DR 7 on the table with no DRM)rolled plus 6 SCPP...total of 23CPP average for the German. If the Russian attacks every other scenario that average drops to 16 (23 + 9 = 32/2 = 16). That is a 7 CPP drop in average. However, the Russian average will drop also. It should drop to about 13CPP. However, without counter attacks the average would be 23 (Germ) vs 17 (Ruski). With counter attacks it is 16 (Germ) vs 13 (Ruski). The key seems to be the denial of the 6SCPP every other scenario. Of course the Ruski only has 8 attack chits.

 

[Stacks]

Mel,

I must be missing something but how does the russian get more CPP by counterattacking? The russians get normal CPP for counterattack but half for the following day. The Germans get half for the counterattack but full for the next day. Should be a wash. What am i missing?

No you hasn´t missed anything, I missed something , you´re absolutly right,
The Germans will get roughly 410 CPP if the Russians conduct all Counterattacks
and the Russians will get about 345 CPP (60-70 CPP less).

The Germans will get roughly 340 CPP if the Russians conduct only the counter attack the first night (bonus 10 CPP & -2 DRM).
and the Russians will get about 275 CPP (60-70 CPP less).

That would mean that if you feel that the Russians don´t have the benefit
of attacking during night (mostly due to the advancing cost of 4 MF
for non-cloaked units that will make you very vulnerable in CC due to the CX),
the best tactic might be to take Idle as much as possible,
would probably do it the next time.

To put some time pressure on the Germans, although in this CG that would probably have ended the CG two days later (22 Sept) and the benefit for the Russians to set up after the Germans would have been lost.

 

[Tater]

No you hasn´t missed anything, I missed something , you´re absolutly right,
The Germans will get roughly 410 CPP if the Russians conduct all Counterattacks
and the Russians will get about 345 CPP (60-70 CPP less).

The Germans will get roughly 340 CPP if the Russians conduct only the counter attack the first night (bonus 10 CPP & -2 DRM).
and the Russians will get about 275 CPP (60-70 CPP less).

That would mean that if you feel that the Russians don´t have the benefit
of attacking during night (mostly due to the advancing cost of 4 MF
for non-cloaked units that will make you very vulnerable in CC due to the CX),
the best tactic might be to take Idle as much as possible,
would probably do it the next time.

To put some time pressure on the Germans, although in this CG that would probably have ended the CG two days later (22 Sept) and the benefit for the Russians to set up after the Germans would have been lost.

Don't those numbers assume the German never goes idle? Unlike RB I am not at all sure the German can afford to never go idle in this CG.

 

[pward]

Don't those numbers assume the German never goes idle? Unlike RB I am not at all sure the German can afford to never go idle in this CG.

Haven't looked into the AAR files, what happened to the German ELR in this campaign?

 

[Stacks]

A Russian player that would like to have a shorter CG should probably use
7 of his attack chits to generate Dual attacks, hoping that the German player
has to set up first (like you do in Red Barricades).

The ELR was constantly the same both sides started with, although the Russians had the chance to increase his ELR to 4 with an average DR after the generated Idle Day but (of course) I rolled a DR of 9.

The last scenario played, German ELR: 3 and Russian ELR: 2.

 

[CraigBenn]

A Russian player that would like to have a shorter CG should probably use
7 of his attack chits to generate Dual attacks, hoping that the German player
has to set up first (like you do in Red Barricades).

The ELR was constantly the same both sides started with, although the Russians had the chance to increase his ELR to 4 with an average DR after the generated Idle Day but (of course) I rolled a DR of 9.

The last scenario played, German ELR: 3 and Russian ELR: 2.

Melvin,
congratulations on having the guts to fight on and play and record to the very end. What are the 'lessons learned' for the Russians? What would you do different next time?

 

[AdrianE]

I'm impressed guys. You played this one extremely fast.

Thanks for the AAR.

 

[janusz.maxe]

Wouldn't the FlaK-wagens be good as fire brigades vs a Russians counter attack at night? They gain Freedom of movement if any starts offboard, right?
Too bad votg retains the (German) ability from RB to keep retained units offboard an thus have FoM from turn 1. In KGP they have to roll a dr I believe, or wait for combat.

When starting my CGIV a week ago, I toyed with the thought of (as the Soviet player) buy two medium or heavy OBA modules and prereg the German start area, then setup everything (like 80%) up front to keep the Germans bottled up in the blast areas of two 120mm FFE. With nowhere to rout and rally, some lucky card draws could be crippling for my enemy.

OTOH, maybe withdraw everything behind the first road. Conserve forces. It takes the Germans about two turns to simply run through the rail area, and many units will be left behind because of congestion and lack of leaders. Don't think any serious assault across the first road can be mounted 'til turn 4.

thoughts?
Janusz

 

[Stacks]

The first day is quite scripted on what you ought to purchase - as I see it,
since you can only purchase several Group Types for the Initial scenario.

Two NKVD Militia Coy - 6 CPP (both in Reserve).
4x 76L ART Guns - 5 CPP.
3x T-34 Dug-In Tanks - 3 CPP.

what to do with the last 4 CPP.
maybe purchase 3x 76* INF Guns - 4 CPP,
better yet would probably be to spend the 4 CPP to
Increase the SAN to 6 and Booby Trap level to A and Purchase
the MOL-P pltn in Reserve.

The 40 FPP you start with could be spent on HIP & ?.

All in bold text can only be purchased the first scenario.

 

[Stacks]

The Germans will get roughly 340 - 410 CPP and
the Russians will get about 275 - 345 CPP (60-70 CPP less).

Some rough calculations (a good portion of the Infantry in reserve):
Purchased & received all German Infantry Coy, Pltns, Guns and StuG pltns should
cost him about 230 CPP and the following will be received (with depletion),
leaving 110 - 180 CPP to purchase Stuka, Aerial bombard., OBA, SAN, etc.

Germans:
160x 4-6-7, 9x 4-4-7
50x 5-4-8
28x 8-3-8
56x crews

Total: 275 Squads Equivalents & 70 leaders. 154 SWs.
22 HMG, 22 MMG, 40 LMG, 13 ATR, 13 LT. MTR, 9 FT, 35 DC
36x Guns
30x StuG IIIG & StuG IIIB

********************************************
Some rough calculations (a good portion of the Infantry in reserve):
Purchase & received all Russian Infantry Coy, Pltns, Guns (no AFVs) should
cost him about 230 CPP and the following will be received (with depletion),
leaving 50 - 110 CPP to purchase AFVs, OBA, SAN, Fortifications, etc.

Russians:
106x 4-5-8
100x 4-4-7 & 5-2-7 (82x Rifle and 18x SMG)
66x 6-2-8 (40x regular and 26x Ass. Eng.)
18x 6-2-8 NKVD
40x Conscripts
60x Crews

Total: 360 squad Equivalents & 60 Leaders, 187 SWs.
22 HMG, 24 MMG, 45 LMG, 30 ATR, 26 LT. MRT, 8 FT, 22 DC, 10 MOL-P
32x Guns
5x AFVs

There are the rough numbers, think that it suggest that the Germans are much stronger than the Russians, considering the fact that 40 of the Russian
squads are Conscripts and they are even worse to have in this VotG
than Red barricades due to the Gutted buildings MF cost of 3 (or 2 in the staircases) and there ain´t no interior factory complex to hide in.

 

[Honza]

Very interesting statistics. Thanks Melvin for working it out.

The Germans needs to be stronger because they are attacking. But the Russian has to find out what he can do to defend himself. Is the Russian too weak to be able to defend himself sufficiently to win the CG 50% of the time? To make the CG balanced? That is the question.

 

[Honza]

I'm wondering if the Russian should not spend more CPP on OBA and Fortifications like Bob Holmstrom said. A few OBA missions with pre-reg hexes brought down as BARRAGES as well as minefields and other FORT's should do a lot to slow the Germans down.

I think that since the Germans are attacking along a broad front BARRAGES would be ideal to lay down across the Germans path. The J road is perfect for laying screens of barrages across since its is essentially a strip of open terrain. The whole road complex on the map could be utilised to the Russian advantage. OBA barrages and Fortifications could make crossing those roads very troublesome for the Germans.

 

[janusz.maxe]

Did the Soviets use any AA-guns (37L) against the Stukas? I've been looking at the possibility, but the probmel is:
1: Low probability to defend a target (as a tank) vs air attacks.
2: If the guns setup to defend against the planes, it will be quite far back and at ground level, thus having minimal impact on the ground battle in case the Germans get few planes or commits them in another sector. OR, they setup in top of high buildings, but then must stay there (fortified location) and cannot fire AA from gutted bulding.

Janusz

 

[Shadowace]

No AA-guns where used against Stukas. There's an additional problem with the Stuka Wave (new Stuka's every turn); AA-gun fire is conducted after the Stuka attack.

 

[rdw5150]

No AA-guns where used against Stukas. There's an additional problem with the Stuka Wave (new Stuka's every turn); AA-gun fire is conducted after the Stuka attack.

Dang! I had not thought of that. I was kicking myself for not buying the AA guns (I bought the 76L instead a waste for me as they have not squat). But now I am not as mad at myself:>)

Peace

Roger

 

[sdennis]

Dang! I had not thought of that. I was kicking myself for not buying the AA guns (I bought the 76L instead a waste for me as they have not squat). But now I am not as mad at myself:>)

Peace

Roger

Yeah the AA guns are only a viable buy if you think your opponent is buying "regular" Stukas

Steve

 

[janusz.maxe]

Are they a viable buy even then? They cost as much as 4 regular stuka buys (IIRC). They might get overun and captured, they might jam, sniper might break a crew, and will they really protect you ground troops at all?
Janusz