VotG CG II/IV scenario 1 summary

[Bob Miller]

Summary of completed and started VotG CG II or CG IV initial scenarios as reported in these forums. Many of these CGs due to lack of a specific AAR (players just mentioned as reference their own existing game) both players names are not known and if they are finished or not isn't known either. Let's get some reporting in guys.

German: Cory Coleman CVP lost - 82
Russian: Wynn Polnicky CVP lost - 61

G: Melvin Falk CVP lost approx 86
R: Shadowace CVP lost approx 155

G: Steve Dennis CVP lost - 54
R: Neil Dennis CVP lost - 69

G: Rockford "blindhex" CVP lost - 86
R Joe CVP lost - 101

G: Tyco German conceded day one, no CVP#s
R: Jerry

G: Pellam/Willis CVP lost approx - 86 (forgot # from last night)
R: Holstrom/Miller "the Bobs" CVP lost approx - 111 (again forgot exact)

G: unknown CVP lost - not reported
R: Roger Whelan CVP lost - not reported but tanks blown up!

G: unknown "
R: CraigBenn "

G: Peter Ward "Springfield IL" "
R: unknown "

G: Jim White "
R: unknown "

G: unknown CVP lost - not reported
R: Baelfiin "blogspot" CVP lost - not reported

and Jim Taylor is still waiting to get started as Neil still hasn't stopped by last I read. All dressed up but nobody to take him out dancing.

Just from this initial listing (very incomplete) it seems that the Germans do have a difficult time reaching that 2:1 CVP level.

 

[Bob Holmstrom]

First off, Christ Miller, you can't even spell your partners last name correctly?

Secondly, i left the final CVP tally at Joe's so maybe he can chime in here when/if he see this. I think though, that we lost 103CVP and Joe and Brian lost 85CVP, plus 5! immobilized tanks--2 abandoned.

Thirdly, thanks for posting this info. Interesting info; i wonder how often the Germans won the initial scenario during playtest. I've also noted that, give or take a few hexrows, the German gains in territory are all pretty similar.

 

[Rockford]

Thirdly, thanks for posting this info. Interesting info; i wonder how often the Germans won the initial scenario during playtest. I've also noted that, give or take a few hexrows, the German gains in territory are all pretty similar.

Yeah. Thanks for compiling this. Prior to starting I had read some analysis on these forums that there will probably be German breakthroughs on day one of the CG. I thought I must have not done very well.

Nice to see that I'm not alone.:laugh:

 

[pward]

My game is on hold against my brother, Joe Ward. It's in turn 5 Russian rally phase, and not likely to get moving unless I can pass an STC when he comes out for a visit around July 4th weekend. I don't expect that I can tear him away from Age of Conan before then.

It would be nice to take it to the table from VASL for a change. There will be less complaints about the dicebot as well...

 

[CraigBenn]

G: unknown "
R: CraigBenn "

Can't resist the magical allure of ASL statistics. Makes me feel all warm inside.

German player is Mark Blackmore.

Russian losses
43 squads, 2 crews, T-34 and crew, 76L arty, 2 x 82*MTR, 4 Commissars & 3 leaders.
Total: 109 CVP
German losses
32 squads, 4 crews, StugB and crew, Sdkfz 10/5 and crew, 82*MTR, 2 leaders.
Total: 86 CVP

Up until turn 6, the casualties were fairly even, but then the defenses started creaking, and any longer and it would have been horrible.

I think the first day is more about taking ground than inflicting CVP - due to the NKVD and/or SMG companies short range and lack of support weapons - the German player should be aiming to break through at the 9th January square buildings. The next day with guards defenders its a lot harder. Love to have a go as the Germans and see what could be done - probably be a while before that happens though
Surely theres a Red Barricades style armoured blitz to try on the north flank, as all the Russian armour is in the south a la setup restrictions?

One of the things I've noticed is that VOTG and Red Barricades kill ratios are totally different (though I've never played Red Barricades). Most RB affectionados quote 2:1 as about even. In VOTG russian infantry is scarcer and more expensive, but higher quality.

Assuming average strength
Russians can buy 16 Rifle Coys (16 x 12) = 192
SMG Coy = 9
2 on start NKVD or SMG coys = 16/17
OB given Rifle Coy (+4 drm) = 9
OB given SMG Coy = 9
OB given 4 x NKVD Coy = 32
OB given 6 x 4-4-7 and 3 Pltns = 14
20 x SMG/Storm Pltns (avg 2.75) = 55
Total = 336

Germans
OB given 4 x Rifle Coy = 48
OB given 6 x Pltn = 16/17
11 x Rifle Coy = 132
22 x Stoss/Pioneer Pltns = 60/61
Total = 257

This works out at something like 1.3 to 1 - Germans get better historic DRM overall, but I think CG scenario balance will favour Russians.

 

[Tycho]

G: Tyco German conceded day one, no CVP#s
R: Jerry

Actually, it's spelled Tycho
And since we're all such good friends around here, I'll admit that when I failed my PMC the losses were

G Tycho lost 7CVP
R Jerry lost 15CVP

I'll go slink back under a rock now.... :argh:

 

[Honza]

Actually, it's spelled Tycho
And since we're all such good friends around here, I'll admit that when I failed my PMC the losses were

G Tycho lost 7CVP
R Jerry lost 15CVP

I'll go slink back under a rock now.... :argh:

Are you going to give it another go?

 

[Tycho]

Are you going to give it another go?

Yep, we switched sides and started up again.
Only got a chunk of the first turn done so far (RL intruded). Three aerial bombardments dropped a couple of buildings, killed some conscripts, and started a fire in the railyard. It'll be fun to see how fast it burns up....

Tycho

 

[Bob Miller]

Good, glad to see that your are giving it another shot Tycho. When Rich Domovic gets back into town I'm gonna arm twist him to see if he wants to give CG II or IV a whirl. Hopefully he'll let me have the Germans as I want to "test" some ideas I have about what to do early in the CG.

I'll up date the CG scenario 1 results and repost them on a spreadsheet or some kind of attachment that is more readable.

I realize I forgot Tater's ongoing game as well. Keep the AARs and updates coming in.

 

[Shadowace]

Summary of completed and started VotG CG II or CG IV initial scenarios as reported in these forums. Many of these CGs due to lack of a specific AAR (players just mentioned as reference their own existing game) both players names are not known and if they are finished or not isn't known either. Let's get some reporting in guys.

G: Melvin Falk CVP lost approx 86
R: Shadowace CVP lost approx 155

The numbers and sides are correct, but Melvin is playing the Russian and I the German.

 

[James Taylor]

And I'm the Germans and was waiting for Steve Dennis not Neil to set up the Russians.

Well... he's done setting up and now he's waiting on me!

It's the end of the year long soccer season and tryouts are next week. I'm lucky to sneak in some VASL.

JT

 

[pward]

Joe and I tried to continue the CG this evening, but he has since last time he did an OS reinstall and couldn't remember the password used, so that instance is a wash.

 

[rdw5150]

I am about to start turn 8 of scenario 1. Its been a bllod bath for the Russian, probably along the lines of Melvin's losses.

With all the Stuka activity seems likey to be able to crush the on board russian armor......

I got my Russians to enter turn 7, but decided to hold most off board (including the KVS) as I saw it was pointless to bring them on to get killed......

Though I did have a 426 kill an 838 in CC (And survived to tell the tale) and another 426 kill a 467 and a 9-1 in CC only CRing in the process!

great stuff!

Peace

Roger

 

[CraigBenn]

Resurrecting this post -

I think everyone is curious about how all the ongoing VOTG campaigns are going.
How about everyone posts CVP lost for each date played on this thread?

I've put mine in various threads already but will draw them together, and consult grubby pieces of paper to get the breakdown. Bob Miller is hereby appointed head of statistics to understand what it all means...

 

[John McDiarmid]

I am playing the Russians vs. Wai Wong as the Germans.

Total losses Day 1:

Russian ~75 CVP (including 5 tanks)
Germans ~ 35 CVP

Compared to many the German CVP was low, but then again I spent the first 6 turns running away as fast as I could to try and keep the NKVD alive for later days.

 

[James Taylor]

Steve and I finished Day 1.

Russians losses: 80+

German losses: 37 give or take...

He didn't run... but stood his ground and did a pretty good job of holding in the South, while everywhere else he basically held to the long street line.

Counter-attack setup underway...

JT

 

[janusz.maxe]

14th:
Soviet losses 128, German 65. Many Conscripts, and AFVs (on both sides), dead.
Janusz

 

[CraigBenn]

A quick update - please fill in any blanks/correct errors - 14 Day only
In order of the most Russian CVP
German Russian Ratio
Shadowace vs Melvin Falk 86 155 1.80
Unknown vs Honus 60+ 141+ 2.35
Henrik vs Janusz 68 120 1.76
Jim White vs Charlie Wilmer 61 115 1.89
Pellam/Willis vs Holstrom/Miller 86 111 1.29
Mark Blackmore vs Craig Benn 86 109 1.27
Rockford Blindhex vs Joe 86 101 1.17
James Taylor vs Steve Dennis 37 80+ 2.16
Wai Wong vs John McDiarmid 35 75 2.14
Steve Dennis vs Neil Dennis 54 69 1.28
Cory Coleman vs Wynn Polnicky 82 61 0.74
Tycho vs Jerry 7 15 2.14
? vs Roger Whelan
Peter Ward vs unknown
Unknown vs Baelfiin

Excluding Tycho's game for wussiness - the Germans have only won the initial scenario three out of eleven times. Average CVP lost is Germans 67.36 Russians 103.36 which works out at a 1.53 to 1 ratio.

It will be interesting to see how all these campaigns end - to get an idea of how much damage the German player has to do on the first day to have a reasonable shot at winning....

 

[janusz.maxe]

Note that the Germans can lose 5 StuGs (30 CVP) scenario 1, and have them all back by scen 3. Hell, he can lose 8 out of 12 StuGs and a couple of FlakW (say 58 CVP) and still be in good shape. On the other hand, start loosing HMGs and FTs (malf, capt or simply depleted), the best leaders and engineers, and the CVP isn't affected much but balance swings heavily towards the Sovs.

Has anyone even been close to reaching Volga on scen 1?
It's about 30 hexes to gain LOS. I'd think you need a CLEAR breakthrough by turn 3 to get there, and no MMGs, MTRs, Guns or OBA interfering to get there. Maybe a leader with a platoon can, but not in force. They'd be isolated, and counterattacked and annihilated during the night (due to getting no reinforcements, can't regroup much and no heavy weapons. Such an outpost is a textbook example of night assault target.
Janusz

 

[Bob Miller]

I agree Janusz on several of your points. Not all CVP are created equal. 7 points for a dead KV only to have it repaired in Refit is a whole lot better than having an assault platoon of 2 628s and a 9-2 leader with all their precious equipment wiped out and lost. Raw CVP totals don't measure this disparity.

Dashing infantry across the map (exposing those troops to fire and taking them away from the main attack) to capture ferry landings for 10 bonus CVP each doesn't seem worth the risk. The -3/-2 on the Battle Hardening tables for winning the scenario is nice but not if it costs me precious troops getting to those ferrys, only to have them isolated and more than likely wiped out during a night counter assault. Now maybe if it's a larger modifier on the MMC and leader Battle Hardening Tables or the # of MMC (currently maxed at 5) to be battle harderned is increased, than I would consider it. Plus too if the winning side can see better battle hardening benefits, it could counter balance John McDiermed's strategy of losing on purpose to get the better balance modifier.

Currently as designed and weighted, no need for Germans to recreate the mad dash to the river on Day 1.