Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

Michael Dorosh

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Isn't pretty much everything discussed around here a "personal threshold" issue?
Not at all; many threads talk about "community standards" even if some of them only bemoan a lack of same, or argue about who is qualified to set them or even discuss them with any credibility.
 

Psycho

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I think you have inappropriate expectations when it comes to how other companies manage their own affairs. One post on an internet forum doesn't change the course of a company. Pitman does too.

Pitman's point is valid only for Pitman, he doesn't speak for all of the ASL community. If he was that irked about the delay, he could have contacted BFP for a refund, or gone through the right channels at paypal. (If that's even possible, I don't use paypal.) He hasn't mentioned (or I haven't noticed it mentioned) that he tried either approach before he asked them to change their ways.

It's not like they didn't communicate the delay to enough folks/places to let people know there was a problem. (Going from previous comments, I'm not even sure what product to search for to find a post here.) It is a reasonable expectation to receive product in a timely manner after payment. It's not so reasonable when there are unforeseen delays. (And there is always the fact that "timely" means different things to different folks.)

And, as always; you and Pitman have the option to stop purchasing from vendors you don't agree with.
You mean he had other options that he could of used instead of making a spectacle of himself? Kinda like the whole "let's get Don to change the way he runs his site to prove that I know better than him (and all others) and then when they vote on a return to the original way I'll leave and start a forum to show them how to really run one" thing? ;)
 

Michael Dorosh

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Actually, I'll go one further and ask - why have pre-order/pre-pay at all?

I understand that publishers want to gauge the market and test the waters; surely it is for their benefit, not the consumer's. Why else the artificial lure of a cost savings? Why not just offer the same low prices all the time? It seems like such a stupid "trick" - order now and get 10 percent off, blah blah blah. You know what - stand behind your product, instead. If it is good, the consumer will pay 10 percent over retail. He'll buy two copies, the dirty hoarder. Just ask Johns or Wolkey. Other ASL guys skip out on alimony, forget kid's birthdays, and buy themselves ASL for Christmas rather than give to the poor. Come on, who needs the hustle? Just give the goods at the same price all the time and leave out the gimmicks.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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And what if you would have put into your contract a stipulation that penalized the company building your house so much every month it was late, bet you would be happier yet:smoke::clown::nuts:

Peace

roger
Rain. Snow. Ice storms. Microbursts.

All have a trickle down effect on contractors. Making them rush to meet deadlines isn't always a good thing.
 

Psycho

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It's a reasonable thing to discuss - good thread - but isn't this an individual threshold issue?

I actually prefer to be charged up front, to be honest, rather than have a "surprise" charge even 3 weeks later. It's more convenient to track purchases. I absolutely loathe preorder systems where you can be surprised up to several months or even years later and then find out your credit cards have expired in the interim. What a pain! (Yes, this has happened to me with at least one company producing ASL stuff.) Doesn't it make more sense just to pay up front and be done with it?

Customers form their own relationships with different vendors; each one is unique and based on different feedback gathered from a variety of sources. The biggest part of it is their own comfort level with the various forms of payment and expectations.

It's funny to hear complaints about delivery times; growing up, I think all of us can remember the "expect 6 to 8 weeks for delivery" disclaimers for all the snail-mail orders for just about anything we tried to buy out of the back of a comic book, or using those goofy fold-over Avalon Hill mail order catalogue forms.

I had no problem pre-paying with BFP based on what I knew about them and their products. They stated up front the conditions of sale, and kept people informed of the status of the orders. I am sure we could all argue about the efficiency of their communication model, etc., but again, that's all individual taste, and I was not dissatisfied with my experiences with them. I would prepay again with BFP as the delay was not, for me, onerous.
Preorders only work for big companies (MMP, GMT, etc) while the smaller companies usually use prepay. The big exception seems to be CH. Is it really that big a deal for Pitman to pony up $75 when he has invested so much in ASL and the many rare items? Maybe we can take up a collection to help him thru these hard times? :rolleyes:

And Portal? Who cares what he thinks about the whole prepay vs preorder? He doesn't use them as he has constantly said he uses Alex Key. :rolleyes:
 

Michael Dorosh

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Preorders only work for big companies (MMP, GMT, etc) while the smaller companies usually use prepay. The big exception seems to be CH. Is it really that big a deal for Pitman to pony up $75 when he has invested so much in ASL and the many rare items? Maybe we can take up a collection to help him thru these hard times? :rolleyes:

And Portal? Who cares what he thinks about the whole prepay vs preorder? He doesn't use them as he has constantly said he uses Alex Key. :rolleyes:
Mmmmm....well, I think the point was everyone's opinion is equally worthless, or equally valuable. The vendors can sift through the responses and make of it what they will. Personally, I like pre-pay, and as long as vendors don't abuse it, I hope it remains an option. Speaking for me, it works the best. I like the ability to pay up front, know that my credit card will be charged then and there - no surprises three months or a year from now - and that I'll be on the list of people guaranteed to get the goodies once they're available, not missing out. If that's naive of me, so be it. Like Vinnie said in the other thread, no one is becoming millionaires at this, except maybe Wild Bill Wilder and firsttofight, but you can't preorder from him for love nor money anyhow. :laugh:
 

Portal

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pward,

It's not so reasonable when there are unforeseen delays. (And there is always the fact that "timely" means different things to different folks.)
IMHO, if a company could feasibly expect unforeseen delays (printer foul-ups are par for the course within the publishing biz), don't ask for payment prior to shipping. Most companies sure would be chasing the customer if he didn't pay after 30 days or so of receiving a currently unpaid order. I don't buy the double-standard.

you and Pitman have the option to stop purchasing from vendors you don't agree with.
The only aspect I don't agree with is the pre-payment concept. I don't think it's in my (the customer's) interest. I'll buy a product when it's ready.
 

fwheel73

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Actually, I'll go one further and ask - why have pre-order/pre-pay at all?

I understand that publishers want to gauge the market and test the waters; surely it is for their benefit, not the consumer's. Why else the artificial lure of a cost savings? Why not just offer the same low prices all the time? It seems like such a stupid "trick" - order now and get 10 percent off, blah blah blah. You know what - stand behind your product, instead. If it is good, the consumer will pay 10 percent over retail. He'll buy two copies, the dirty hoarder. Just ask Johns or Wolkey. Other ASL guys skip out on alimony, forget kid's birthdays, and buy themselves ASL for Christmas rather than give to the poor. Come on, who needs the hustle? Just give the goods at the same price all the time and leave out the gimmicks.
Gentlemen,

I can agree with Michael, with PWARD, and RCORNWELL....not forgetting Roger's desire to only buy after publication. Obviously, I also think Pitman's reaction was way out of line although not out of his online character--like Kreta.

The only reason I would buy early is that I think the "profit" margins are quite thin to non-existant.... and I feel like helping with the carrying cost when the material is being sent to the printer. If the company does not have enough cash they must borrow which makes it more difficult to make a small margin of profit in this game/hobby endeavor.

KEY POINT.... I will only do this with someone I trust.... one who has demonstrated the workmanship and quality a gamer wants in the product. I, like a number of folks on this forum, know some of the BFP folks--like Chas and Sam--and respect the others BFP folks--Sarge & Brian-- we have met here at GS. If you have met Chas you know he is serious about the design, the look of the product and the necessity of treating the customer with a good product and service. His ongoing military service certainly adds to his trustworthyness & credibility. So I don't mind buying early if I know that it helps keep the price down by keeping the costs down to print the product.... some folks would call this a subscription. I don't doubt that the TPP are making so little money that their activities are really a work of love for the hobby (maybe they make $1.00 per hour of work... kind of a dumb activity:crosseye:).

From another perspective.... I think if MMP got enough limited "subscribers" they could fund the map pack we all thought would be published by now. Again..... the problem with subscriptions to a product is that you have to trust the person or company you subscribe to. There is no big expectation for a profit just the satisfaction of helping to carry part of the product cost to the market. No trust... no subscription.

Point to remember.... we are not dealing with Walmart, Coke or Guinness, but a few folks who want to sell a quality product we want.

Just a point of view... :)

Best regards,:salute:

John
 

fwheel73

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pward,
[big snip]
The only aspect I don't agree with is the pre-payment concept. I don't think it's in my (the customer's) interest. I'll buy a product when it's ready.
Portal,

That is exactly the right thing to do if it makes you feel right about your purchase. Me.... well what I just wrote!:)

Best regards,:salute:
John
 

Michael Dorosh

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His ongoing military service certainly adds to his trustworthyness & credibility.
Great post, but don't forget Lee Harvey Oswald, John Dillinger and Scott Holst all served in the military too. :laugh:
 

fwheel73

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Great post, but don't forget Lee Harvey Oswald, John Dillinger and Scott Holst all served in the military too. :laugh:
Yer right... but we know that Chas is a Jedi Knight.... and only a few make it to and thru that school in Kansas....and he loves ASL to boot..... figure that. Some would say he can't be too smart.... trying to make some money selling ASL stuff... I think he knows that if the BFP folks are lucky they will just break even. The love of the game....

Best regards,:salute:
John
 
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sswann

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Life can be really simple if you would let it.
If you do not like Pre-Pay then Don't.... simple isn't it?
If you do like it... then pre-pay and wait for the product.

If you want guarantees... here are the only two in the real world...
1. Taxes
2. Death
 

fwheel73

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Life can be really simple if you would let it.
If you do not like Pre-Pay then Don't.... simple isn't it?
If you do like it... then pre-pay and wait for the product.

If you want guarantees... here are the only two in the real world...
1. Taxes
2. Death
Steve,
You are right...but there is really only one guarantee it is.....
1. Texas.... Austin, Texas at the 19th Annual Texas Team Tournament starting on June 25. You are guaranteed to get some ASL in.... you coming?:D

Best regards, :salute:
John
 

King Scott

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If you want guarantees... here are the only two in the real world...
1. Taxes
2. Death
You would think that if you invoked #2 above that it would stop #1...I know from personal experience that it does not!

Long story short...years ago I was the victim of identity theft...I bought a new car and the dealer called me the next day to tell me that I had to bring the car back because I was reported as deceased...turns out that someone had used my social security number to try to file death benefits...I had to go to the Social Security Administration offices and "prove" that I was not dead...at one point in the meeting I asked them "if I'm dead, then why are you still taking taxes from me?" :p:laugh::nuts:

Semper Fi!
Scott
 

MrP

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Meh. If I had the money, I'd preorder from BFP, even if it's a prepay up front, based on how honest they've been so far. Up to now they've shown no signs of CH-ness ie. taking your cash and providing bugger all and they've given no signs that they ever will.

Make a choice. Prepay/order or not. Your choice.
 

olli

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Make a choice. Prepay/order or not. Your choice.[/QUOTE]

the best and most obvious statement about any of the threads about BFP, no need for anyone to *****, it is a personal stand. If you can afford it pre order, if not wait for the release.
 
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