MMP: going the way of the Dodo?

[xenovin]

Pretty soon MMP will be going the way of the ASLOK!

 

[Robin Reeve]

At least it is better than some that do not even have that basic functionality.

Most sites where you can order things have a "order history", which allows you to verify what you have purchased (or not) - GMT, Compass Games, not speaking of Amazon and other professional selling sites have that feature.
In this quickly evolving universe of Internet, sites must keep at pace with the increasing quality of services.
I would say that MMP's site has dropped behind present day standars for about 10-15 years.
As the customers are mostly ageing men, it is not dramatical, but some refreshing would be good news.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I can be a better person.

The world can be a better place.

Everything has room to improve.

But if same as with all other aspects of our lives where hard choices often has to be made between imperfections, I will say this - product descriptions are good, I get charged the correct amount, my order doesn't disappear .. and the small MMP staff takes care of the occasional issue (like a dent in the box) promptly & professionally.

I'm good.

 

[clubby]

I can be a better person.

The world can be a better place.

Everything has room to improve.

But if same as with all other aspects of our lives where hard choices often has to be made between imperfections, I will say this - product descriptions are good, I get charged the correct amount, my order doesn't disappear .. and the small MMP staff takes care of the occasional issue (like a dent in the box) promptly & professionally.

I'm good.

Agreed. I've always had the stance that it's not my place to come onto an open forum and complain about the way that somebody runs their business. I think there's two choices if you feel that strongly about it. Contact the company via whatever method is available, email, phone, chat, and let them know your feelings and if you still feel so strongly about it do not purchase their products. Let them know, again via private communication, that their unwillingness to change their business practices is keeping you from purchasing from them.

Frankly, they probably feel that there's so much good information disseminated about their products on this forum, CSW and BGG, by people intimately involved with those products, that they're probably reaching their core audience without improving the website. I know when I want to find information about a product, the real scoop, this is the first place I come.

 

[Jazz]

Still I can't help being surprised at how few people seem to agree that the MMP website really is no invitation to new players to try out this hobby (which, if we're going to talk stewardship, should be their nr. 1 concern) and that the lack of fair updates doesn't matter.

You are surprised that more people do not agree with you?

Really?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Still I can't help being surprised at how few people seem to agree that the MMP website really is no invitation to new players to try out this hobby (which, if we're going to talk stewardship, should be their nr. 1 concern) and that the lack of fair updates doesn't matter....

Could perhaps be because most people on this forum are not "new" players.

Personally I think that most "new" players will probably find out what ASL is all about even without looking at MMP's website - but that's not saying it couldn't be improved.

 

[dur]

As a new player (I started about 18 months ago) and as someone who is a young IT professional (I'm 27), I can say that the MMP site is indeed quite confusing at first glace. When I was first thinking of getting in to the hobby, I wasn't even sure if MMP was the official publisher due to the maze of product categories I had to navigate through in order to find the ASL core modules. At that point I was even more confused since most of the products listed on that page were either out of stock or out of print! It took some googling and reading of various forums to piece together exactly what the deal is with ASL.

That being said, once you know what's going on I think the MMP site is at least functional. For some reason, awful websites are the norm in the wargaming hobby. GMT, arguably the most prolific publisher currently in business, has an awful website with horrible shipping notifications and a barely intelligible order history. I think we just have to take this kind of thing as par for the course until more young (or technically acclimated) people end up on the backend of the hobby (no offense intended towards our old school players!).

 

[MAS01]

As a new player (I started about 18 months ago) and as someone who is a young IT professional (I'm 27), I can say that the MMP site is indeed quite confusing at first glace. When I was first thinking of getting in to the hobby, I wasn't even sure if MMP was the official publisher due to the maze of product categories I had to navigate through in order to find the ASL core modules. At that point I was even more confused since most of the products listed on that page were either out of stock or out of print! It took some googling and reading of various forums to piece together exactly what the deal is with ASL.

That being said, once you know what's going on I think the MMP site is at least functional. For some reason, awful websites are the norm in the wargaming hobby. GMT, arguably the most prolific publisher currently in business, has an awful website with horrible shipping notifications and a barely intelligible order history. I think we just have to take this kind of thing as par for the course until more young (or technically acclimated) people end up on the backend of the hobby (no offense intended towards our old school players!).

Hey Dur!

Depending on where in Ohio you're at, I would strongly suggest that you try to get to ASLOK in Cleveland between 10/1 and 10/8. Don't worry about being a new player; there will be more than enough players there willing to lend a newer player a helping hand.

I unfortunately won't be there; my son had the audacity and the nerve of deciding to get married on the 7th.

Don't hesitate to ask any of us for help. If you want to get in a PBEM game sometime, drop me a PM.

Cheers,


Mark

 

[dur]

Thanks! I am well aware of ASLOK and am making an effort to attend this year. Cheers!

 

[rwphillipsstl]

I am also a (very) new player, though I owned Squad Leader and COI back in the early 1980s. Every so often over the last decade I would consider getting into ASL, but after checking the then-MMP website I would become confused and decide not to mess with it. When I finally decided to plunge in the last months, I only did so after exhaustive internet research because the MMP website is functionally useless to new players--no explanation of "temporarily out of print" versus "currently out of print," no updated list of future products and reprints, and a clunky interface that sends you to a half-dozen different pages to find ASL materials. To understand how the modules fit together and which ones you need, you must read the description for each and every listed product--and to this day I still do not understand how rules updates contained in historical modules fit in to the picture relative to playing scenarios from non-historical modules. Sites like DesperationMorale are terrific, but it is unreasonable to demand brand new players seek these out to learn basic information.

I absolutely do not blame a prospective new player of ASL (interested in WW2 tactical gaming) from foregoing the game when there is no in-print British, North Africa, Allied Minors, Japanese, or Axis Minors, not to mention the Italians and French are out of print from what appears to be the 1990s! (Yeah, yeah, some of those will be reprinted, but when? Who knows?) Someone on this thread linked to a second thread from February 2016 that purports to give a schedule of future releases, but not a darn thing on that list has been published 18 months later. Hong Kong Wargamer has an interesting site, and also purports to give you a schedule of future releases, but his list doesn't match other lists, and it isn't clear where his information is even coming from (and it doesn't jive with other Internet sources, for example he says Hollow Legions in 2019, whereas the scuttlebutt is for next year).

All of this may be fine for those of you using components you purchased when Clinton was president, or finished your collection by paying 3x retail value on EBay, but it is ridiculous from the perspective of new ASL players and trying to grow the hobby. I appreciate MMP are good people who put out quality products, for I can see that from the modules I have purchased and the emails I exchanged with them, but trying to break into this niche of the hobby is a mess. In the big picture, MMP could probably sell as much as 50% more product and thereby reach more players if they could just find someone to clean up their website and someone to write some production updates on a quarterly basis. So what if that means writing each quarter that they are still working on a given list of products? It is still dramatically better to hear that on a continuing basis than try to surmise that the update from 2014 is still current.

I do not mean this criticism to be as harsh as it may sound, because again I recognize MMP are good people putting out good products, but previous attempts on this thread to make this argument have been met by many with derision and denial. If you cannot see what a mess the advertisement and accessibility of ASL is, then you need to look in the mirror and realize you lack completely the perspective of a newbie.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

To understand how the modules fit together and which ones you need, you must read the description for each and every listed product--and to this day I still do not understand how rules updates contained in historical modules fit in to the picture relative to playing scenarios from non-historical modules.

With regard to rules updates in HASL, so far HASLs have no update on the core rules (Chapter A to G), those only come in core modules. Chapter H updates might come in the future if there are some brand new toys (counters), so far none. The rules in a HASL are those only apply to that HASL. Each such HASL rule section so far have their own chapter, one chapter per HASL. The only exception are the mini-HASL (often in a Journal) which have their rules bundled under Chapter Z and because they typically are brief may refer to some sections in a long published HASL like Red Barricades (RB). Some non official TPP HASL may also refer to RB rules sections.

So apart from the mini-HASLs, MMP HASL rules come complete in the box and are applicable to that HASL only and though you might find a few rare scenarios that use some of them (designer's whim), such rules don't apply to non-HASL scenarios. So you need not worry about whether you have them or not.

 

[von Marwitz]

I am also a (very) new player, though I owned Squad Leader and COI back in the early 1980s. Every so often over the last decade I would consider getting into ASL, but after checking the then-MMP website I would become confused and decide not to mess with it. When I finally decided to plunge in the last months, I only did so after exhaustive internet research because the MMP website is functionally useless to new players--no explanation of "temporarily out of print" versus "currently out of print," no updated list of future products and reprints, and a clunky interface that sends you to a half-dozen different pages to find ASL materials. To understand how the modules fit together and which ones you need, you must read the description for each and every listed product--and to this day I still do not understand how rules updates contained in historical modules fit in to the picture relative to playing scenarios from non-historical modules. Sites like DesperationMorale are terrific, but it is unreasonable to demand brand new players seek these out to learn basic information.

I absolutely do not blame a prospective new player of ASL (interested in WW2 tactical gaming) from foregoing the game when there is no in-print British, North Africa, Allied Minors, Japanese, or Axis Minors, not to mention the Italians and French are out of print from what appears to be the 1990s! (Yeah, yeah, some of those will be reprinted, but when? Who knows?) Someone on this thread linked to a second thread from February 2016 that purports to give a schedule of future releases, but not a darn thing on that list has been published 18 months later. Hong Kong Wargamer has an interesting site, and also purports to give you a schedule of future releases, but his list doesn't match other lists, and it isn't clear where his information is even coming from (and it doesn't jive with other Internet sources, for example he says Hollow Legions in 2019, whereas the scuttlebutt is for next year).

All of this may be fine for those of you using components you purchased when Clinton was president, or finished your collection by paying 3x retail value on EBay, but it is ridiculous from the perspective of new ASL players and trying to grow the hobby. I appreciate MMP are good people who put out quality products, for I can see that from the modules I have purchased and the emails I exchanged with them, but trying to break into this niche of the hobby is a mess. In the big picture, MMP could probably sell as much as 50% more product and thereby reach more players if they could just find someone to clean up their website and someone to write some production updates on a quarterly basis. So what if that means writing each quarter that they are still working on a given list of products? It is still dramatically better to hear that on a continuing basis than try to surmise that the update from 2014 is still current.

I do not mean this criticism to be as harsh as it may sound, because again I recognize MMP are good people putting out good products, but previous attempts on this thread to make this argument have been met by many with derision and denial. If you cannot see what a mess the advertisement and accessibility of ASL is, then you need to look in the mirror and realize you lack completely the perspective of a newbie.

Welcome to the forum, rwphillipsstl!

You recommend yourself with a very thoughtful and illuminating first post of your forum activity that shows the perspective of a newcomer to the game.

And you have valid points. Of course, all the information is out there somewhere - with which I don't mean that particular dates for any releases are known - but rather the possibility to find out, "how things work" in general. But as you stated, it requires the exhaustive internet search, which is not exactly making it easy to decide to become involved. The effort to find out what to look for and where to look for it is likely underestimated by those already involved. I still remember, when I found GS forum in 2010. My thought was: "Man, had I known this site before..." The same is true for some other resources with regard to ASL.

MMP could do some things without too much effort to explain - your not knowing the difference of 'temporarily out of stock' vs. 'currently of of print' is a good example. As someone who is new to the game, one would not suspect that it might be a looong wait for some things. And unless you found some forum or ASL FB group etc. no real way to find out that this usually means years rather than months. Some basic information in this regard on the MMP website or some links to the most poplular forums could be of good help.

von Marwitz

 

[Brian W]

I tried to revive the ASLFAQ many years ago (2005?) and was told it was being worked on and basically it really didn't help much anyway. It would be nice to see an ASLFAQ that included module versions, statuses, upgrade paths, along with the rules FAQs. I honestly don't think it would be too difficult to do, even without a "wiki" type update model. But my fire burnt low years ago and I just do not have the energy to re-write and maintain it as I might have done all those years ago.

Perhaps if someone developed one to replace the one now MMP might be willing to host it.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Hong Kong Wargamer has an interesting site, and also purports to give you a schedule of future releases, but his list doesn't match other lists, and it isn't clear where his information is even coming from (and it doesn't jive with other Internet sources, for example he says Hollow Legions in 2019, whereas the scuttlebutt is for next year).

Welcome to the hobby mate!

I played my first ASL game in May 2013 myself, a baby amongst these giants.

Thanks so much for visiting my site! I don't believe I "purports" to give you anything other than a list of future releases from publicly available information (ie I don't list unless it has already been announced/ mentioned by the publisher / designer). I update it whenever I see new info from the publisher/designer amongst various forums but I do not report on rumours.

Look at it as my own shopping list that I hope will help everyone else as well!

Rgds Jack

 

[BigAl737]

I

I am also a (very) new player, though I owned Squad Leader and COI back in the early 1980s. Every so often over the last decade I would consider getting into ASL, but after checking the then-MMP website I would become confused and decide not to mess with it. When I finally decided to plunge in the last months, I only did so after exhaustive internet research because the MMP website is functionally useless to new players--no explanation of "temporarily out of print" versus "currently out of print," no updated list of future products and reprints, and a clunky interface that sends you to a half-dozen different pages to find ASL materials. To understand how the modules fit together and which ones you need, you must read the description for each and every listed product--and to this day I still do not understand how rules updates contained in historical modules fit in to the picture relative to playing scenarios from non-historical modules. Sites like DesperationMorale are terrific, but it is unreasonable to demand brand new players seek these out to learn basic information.

I absolutely do not blame a prospective new player of ASL (interested in WW2 tactical gaming) from foregoing the game when there is no in-print British, North Africa, Allied Minors, Japanese, or Axis Minors, not to mention the Italians and French are out of print from what appears to be the 1990s! (Yeah, yeah, some of those will be reprinted, but when? Who knows?) Someone on this thread linked to a second thread from February 2016 that purports to give a schedule of future releases, but not a darn thing on that list has been published 18 months later. Hong Kong Wargamer has an interesting site, and also purports to give you a schedule of future releases, but his list doesn't match other lists, and it isn't clear where his information is even coming from (and it doesn't jive with other Internet sources, for example he says Hollow Legions in 2019, whereas the scuttlebutt is for next year).

All of this may be fine for those of you using components you purchased when Clinton was president, or finished your collection by paying 3x retail value on EBay, but it is ridiculous from the perspective of new ASL players and trying to grow the hobby. I appreciate MMP are good people who put out quality products, for I can see that from the modules I have purchased and the emails I exchanged with them, but trying to break into this niche of the hobby is a mess. In the big picture, MMP could probably sell as much as 50% more product and thereby reach more players if they could just find someone to clean up their website and someone to write some production updates on a quarterly basis. So what if that means writing each quarter that they are still working on a given list of products? It is still dramatically better to hear that on a continuing basis than try to surmise that the update from 2014 is still current.

I do not mean this criticism to be as harsh as it may sound, because again I recognize MMP are good people putting out good products, but previous attempts on this thread to make this argument have been met by many with derision and denial. If you cannot see what a mess the advertisement and accessibility of ASL is, then you need to look in the mirror and realize you lack completely the perspective of a newbie.

I really value your post. You make many valid points. I encourage you, if you haven't already, to buy the rule book and Beyond Valor. That's enough to get started and enjoy many hours of play. Then if you like it, buy everything that comes in print. Right now I'd put Yanks up there on a priority almost equal to BV. I think it's important for newcomers to realize they will be waiting a decade or more to have a complete system but there's plenty to play while you wait. Welcome aboard!

Allan

 

[jrv]

I don't know if this is 100% current, but it is fairly current: https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/ASL_Modules

JR

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Tell you the truth, coming into the game in 2013 - I have to worry about getting this and that. I was sucked into my first game after only having read a 1/3 of Chapter A and played several times a week since. (There's SO MUCH TO PLAY!!!!) Any questions I had about the rules or product are prompted resolved by my opponents, on GS and on FB. I get to talk to even more people when I started helping out with playtests and EVEN more after I started helping out with regional tournaments. Most of my modules came to me by chance from my opponents at "buddy" pricing. It's a small circle of people and all this will happen to you as well if you focus on participating and playing! It has honestly never crossed my mind to read through every product description on the MMP website etc.

It's pretty encouraging to see the influx of new players!! In my immediate corner of the world we are seeing a lot of university students. I help address questions like yours everyday but all the meanwhile tell everyone to - PLAY with an opponent & GET whatever's in print (to the extent that you can).

Again, welcome to the hobby - this is the best community!

Regards, Jack

 

[Brian W]

I do not mean this criticism to be as harsh as it may sound, because again I recognize MMP are good people putting out good products, but previous attempts on this thread to make this argument have been met by many with derision and denial. If you cannot see what a mess the advertisement and accessibility of ASL is, then you need to look in the mirror and realize you lack completely the perspective of a newbie.

It is unfortunately not an uncommon occurrence; we've been on the ASL drug for so long that we fail to empathize with the new player. I hope you can look beyond our failings, as the game is the thing. It is much better than even SL+COI that you remember, mainly due to a couple of very basic changes to the movement and defensive fire interaction, which both speeds up play and creates constant tension.

So, please stay and play. I recommend to any new player that they forgo buying anything until they play face to face with a veteran. This will save you a lot of money if you don't like the game, and allow you to question the veteran player about things such as availability and requirements to really dive into the system. Depending on where you are, there is likely a group of veterans nearby that will help you test the waters without spending anything to start. ASL is a niche of wargaming, and differs from the rest of the wargaming hobby in many ways. And wargaming, as you probably know, is very different than other modern gaming (be it PS4, cards, or other board gaming).

 

[rwphillipsstl]

I

I really value your post. You make many valid points. I encourage you, if you haven't already, to buy the rule book and Beyond Valor. That's enough to get started and enjoy many hours of play. Then if you like it, buy everything that comes in print. Right now I'd put Yanks up there on a priority almost equal to BV. I think it's important for newcomers to realize they will be waiting a decade or more to have a complete system but there's plenty to play while you wait. Welcome aboard!

Allan

I have now sold off most of my other WW2 games and used them to finance buying pretty much everything available, including the now hard-to-get Doomed Battalions (3e). I am excited to see Armies of Oblivion may indeed see a reprint in the next couple of years, and eagerly await Croix de Guerre (2e). I decided to go ASL over using a similar amount of money on Flames of War and 15mm WW2 figures (I already have some 28mm and a large collection of 28mm buildings). I miss Squad Leader and playing more traditional war games.

 

[GeorgeBates]

I have now sold off most of my other WW2 games and used them to finance buying pretty much everything available, including the now hard-to-get Doomed Battalions (3e).

Way to jump in with both feet!