Lenin's Sons - How can the Germans Win?

SamB

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Lenin's Sons. J103, (IIRC)

How do the Germans ever win this one?

The Russians setup the mortar and HMG (and possibly the MMG) on the open flank with three or so squads. If the Germans try to attack across the open ground, they're going ot lose to the CVP cap. The rest of the Ruskies go into the woods - but can shift to the edge of the woods if the Germans attack in the open.

The fight in the woods seems to take three turns to shatter and mop up the Russian line. By then, it's too late to get through the woods and capture the buildings. I mean waaaaaay too late.

So, how do the Germans win? A flawed Russian setup?

I've played it twice, btw.
 

Bob Holmstrom

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I lost as the Russians but didn't think i would.

My opponent ran 5 or 6 squads across the open through my MMG firelane, shrugging off 4-2 and 2-2 losing only a half squad dead and no breaks or pins.

It was depressing. I'd still take the Ruskies though.
 

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Play some loser named Sam Belcher. Even newbies beat him like a rented mule. You can't lose. ;)
 

ecz

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Lenin's Sons. J103, (IIRC)

How do the Germans ever win this one?

The Russians setup the mortar and HMG (and possibly the MMG) on the open flank with three or so squads. If the Germans try to attack across the open ground, they're going ot lose to the CVP cap. The rest of the Ruskies go into the woods - but can shift to the edge of the woods if the Germans attack in the open.

The fight in the woods seems to take three turns to shatter and mop up the Russian line. By then, it's too late to get through the woods and capture the buildings. I mean waaaaaay too late.

So, how do the Germans win? A flawed Russian setup?

I've played it twice, btw.
I lost it as German against a valiant opponent only because in the decisive final fire attack I rolled three times in a row 6,6 failing to break a 447+MG+leader in a building. The attacks were a 16+1 (malfunctioning a MMG and a LMG, yes again 6,6 in the Random Selection), a 24 +0 attack (Xing the FT), and a "light" attack 12+1.
My funniest experience playing (V)ASL.

Unforgettable.
 
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King Billy

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8 Russian squads to 13 German squads.

The Germans have a 9-2 leader and a MMG that can go on a first floor over watch position.

The Germans have to put enough squads in the advance on the open flank to convince the Russians to keep the support weapons there, but have enough in the woods to win superiority on that flank.

Any losses the Russian takes will cause problems. With seven turns to cover half a map, the Germans can spend time firefighting, or cautiously advancing.

I won it as the Russians though.

Bill
 

Houlie

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Played it three times: won once each as German and Russian. Lost as the Russian. I'd say it slightly favors the Russian, but the Germans can definitely do it.
 

SamB

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Play some loser named Sam Belcher. Even newbies beat him like a rented mule. You can't lose. ;)
Psycho, This makes me think you have worked at Microsoft as a "help desk" technician. Why? Because what you said was technically true, but not helpful. :p

I did put the 9-2, squad / MMG, squad / LMG in the upper floor of the building. I also put a 9-1, squad / LMG, squad / LMG in the adjacent upper level. One squad died, and the 9-2 was wounded. I eventually killed the commissar who was witht the crew / HMG behind the hedge.

My troops in the woods attacked agressively and on turn two they shattered the Russian line.

On turn three I mopped up (surrounded) the broken Russians and moved through the forest. I still ran out of time to get to all the buildings.

I think it heavily favors the Russian. Giving the German the balance in my game yesterday would have made no difference at all.

I can see a German win if the Russian muffs his setup, or if the German gets really good DRs. I don't see how else it could happen. JMO.
 

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I have won as the Germans and lost as the Russians. When I lost as the Russians the Comm died and took MMG/squad with him. To win the Germans have to move and move fast. They have to push hard, even a couple of squads through the open ground and hope for the best. I think this will become an all time ASL classic. It has heaps of re-play value.
 

Psycho

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Psycho, This makes me think you have worked at Microsoft as a "help desk" technician. Why? Because what you said was technically true, but not helpful. :p
Work? :eek: Don't say that word! :OHNO:
 

Tork

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I don't believe the German should put the 9-2 with the MMG in the level one location. A -1 leader should be fine there, but the -2 leader should be in the woods helping advancing fire shots (and rally if necessary).

Worked for me anyway...
 

JérômeREY

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Lenin's Sons. J103, (IIRC)

How do the Germans ever win this one?

So, how do the Germans win? A flawed Russian setup?

I've played it twice, btw.
ROAR is currently 52 to 39 pro-russian.
So it seems many german players found a way to success.
Certainly mostly through the woods I believe. The German gets a very potent offensive force.

Appreciated scenario with 6,65 for average recommendation.
I lost it as the Russian in a tournament, on the very last CC DR (I was winning until then). For the woods defense the Russian can try a volontary rout/commissar rally tactic. But if DR are rolled high this can be a double edged sword. SNAFU.
 

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You do need to play this with the German balance (which requires you to take one less building). This helps the situation, but it's still hard.

However, I recently played this as the Germans (using the balance) and it came down to the wire with CCs (I did lose).

The keys to the German victory:

-Be very aggressive as you move through the woods. Take all your shots in the Adv. Fire phase. Remember that your 548s gets assault fire. Push up adjacent to the Russian line in every turn. Your morale is good. Even under DM, in the woods you can rally on a 6, with a leader. What you need to do is kill Russians. Breaking them is OK, but they're all going rally after they run back to the commissar. In fact, both sides will rally the majority of their troops. For that reason, this is a real grudge match.

- Use the DCs to destroy Russian squads in the woods and cut a hole in their line. I wouldn't save them until the village, because he'll get -2 shots, with point blank fire as you try to place a DC in a building. The odds of placing one go way down.

-If you can, sneak a half squad behind the Russian line in the woods to try to cause failure to rout. He can't cover the entire width of the woods.

-Try to figure out very quickly where his dummies are. Count counters, or bump and expose. This will save you valuable time.

-Move squads along the bottom edge of the woods, so you can take pot shots at any units he has set up behind the hedge line. Important to try to break these guys.

-Place one or two squads in the building, and when he abandons the hedge line, rush it with these two squads to put pressure on his defense of these closest buildings. He has only so many squads, and they can't be everywhere.

-When you get to the edge of the village, deploy. You will need to sacrifice some HSs in your final assault.

-Your assault engineers have an increased smoke exponent of 4. Use it! But try to use it at the end of your movement, so you don't risk having your movement cut short with a 6.

-Don't rely on the flamethrower. It will crap out quickly.

-You might try sending a HS to take the upper most building. You may not get it, but it'll force the Russians to use a squad up there, draining valuable FP from the central village.

-Beware in the endgame of the commissar toting the DC.

Additionally, I would not recommend putting your 9-2 with the MMG in the building's upper level. Keep him in the woods, where he can blast Russians at point blank. You're only getting 4FP with the MMG, anyway, and it's not likely to do a lot of damage. Put it in the building with the HS, and leave it at that.

I did pretty much everything listed here, and got to the edge of the village with just 1.5 squads killed, and came close to winning. I lost mostly because my 9-2 and a squad were taken out by a snake-eyes shot, and my opponent got very lucky in the first CC, when a single leader was able to damage me under 6-1 and 4-1 odds.

It's a fun scenario---a slog through the woods followed by an intense rush of the buildings.
 

SamB

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Thanks everyone for the replies. Good suggestions.

I still think this is 70% pro Russian. I've played it three times. The first two times the Germans were cut to ribbons with 10+ Rate of fire shots and playing with the balance would have made no difference at all.

The third time, I can see how it is POSSIBLE for the Germans to win. But I still think this is a hard row to hoe for the Germans....
 

James Taylor

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Thanks everyone for the replies. Good suggestions.

I still think this is 70% pro Russian. I've played it three times. The first two times the Germans were cut to ribbons with 10+ Rate of fire shots and playing with the balance would have made no difference at all.

The third time, I can see how it is POSSIBLE for the Germans to win. But I still think this is a hard row to hoe for the Germans....
I agree pretty much with your assessment. What the Germans really need is an extra turn, but that could be too heavy.

JT
 

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I agree pretty much with your assessment. What the Germans really need is an extra turn, but that could be too heavy.

JT
Hi!

Also agreed. I lost this on as the Germans. I think one more turn might be the right fix. I am not certain its as close as its ROAR. But I'd definately prefer the Russians in this one!

Peace

roger
 
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jrv

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ROAR is currently 52 to 39 pro-russian.
So it seems many german players found a way to success.
Certainly mostly through the woods I believe. The German gets a very potent offensive force.

Appreciated scenario with 6,65 for average recommendation.
I lost it as the Russian in a tournament, on the very last CC DR (I was winning until then). For the woods defense the Russian can try a volontary rout/commissar rally tactic. But if DR are rolled high this can be a double edged sword. SNAFU.
Was this published originally in le franc tireur? If so, it is German 5/Russian 12 out of that publication. Did anything change between publications? I don't have le franc tireur #7.

JR
 

ecz

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Was this published originally in le franc tireur? If so, it is German 5/Russian 12 out of that publication. Did anything change between publications? I don't have le franc tireur #7.

JR
in the MMP version there's one HS and one LMG more for the Germans. They also have an higher CVP cap (16 instead of 14).
But the LFT card has a better look ...
 

JérômeREY

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ROAR for the original FT version so was more heavily pro-russian (70 % pro-german, not very good balance). The Journal version has it 57 % pro-russian (which at the end of the day is a rather good balance).

So it seems we can thank Xavier for depicting this action in the ASL world (nice scenario, very good use of the 42 board), and acknowledge the good job done by MMP in "rebalancing" it (former balance perhaps being this original scenario's weakness).

First do not harm ! Well done.

For the little story, it would be interesting to know for sure what I would bet : the original german OB may have been a more historically correct assumption, while the MMP final german OB by just pushing a little the cursor historicity/balance towards balance (without losing any flavor) got a finally very very good scenario.


MMP beneficiated from a full scale real playtesting by just reshaping an already published scenario.

I am pretty convinced there is plenty of very high gaming potential scenario out there in the TPP world that would be enlightened and become classical by just doing this kind of work.

OK it's less creative than designing a new scenario from scratch but it's IMHO an interesting path (which MMP noticed before me by the way!).

In the same kind of thinking (making new from old), I would encourage any designer of already published scenario which had to make sacrifice on terrain depiction due to former mapboard limitations to seriously think about redesign it if it appears the new board set offers him something he would certainly have made use the first time. No shame at all ! Board 2 Hill contests, Board 3 and 10 villages contests, Bocage fights etc,etc ...
 
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