Greateset American General and Why?

Dave68124

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But a more direct answer, the Gilberts and the Marshalls could have been bypassed. The main thrust to the Marianas could have come out of the solomons/New Guinea. But the two thrust approach against Japan had as much to do with US service rivalries as it did with strategy. In the actual camapign, which one was the Main Effort? The Central Pacific or South West Pacific? It is hard to say.
Agree with the service rivalries comment. My personal opinion was that the Central pacific thrust was more productive, but could be argued either way. Without the Mariana's, you don't have land based bombers able to target Japanese industries in a meaningful way. We flew some out of China, but not without a crap load of supply issues.
 

ChrisM

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Agree with Dave, though I think both thrusts were necesarry. CentPac axis of attack was needed to establish bomber bases AND to lure the IJN out for a decisive battle. Hindsight is 20-20 and they were pretty much finished after the Solomons campaign - but we didn't really knwo it until teh gilberts and the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.
 

ChrisM

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Some would say the Homma did not do very good considering how long MacArthur's forces held out considering they were out of strategic lines of communications to the United States and the Japanese had air and naval superiority. The delay down the Bataan peninsula could be consider a text book delay in the face of a superior enemy. It just came to no fruition because the UD highest command decided not to come to the rescue. (Not saying that they could nor should have). But the delay in the conquest of the Philippines hurt the Japanese strategic timetable and bought time for the US to rebound for a counteroffensive almost immediately in summer of 1942 (The Solomons Campaign, which was originally under the command of MacArthur)
IDK Blackcloud: Its not like Homma's Army was tasked to go anywhere else - they were pretty much just slated to occupy the Phillipines. As you say - air and naval superiority were established pretty quickly: Bataan and Corregidor were just a pocket of resistance. I don't think it threw the time table off by much - Horii and the South Seas detachment were operating indepently of Homma and they hit the Bismarcks/New Guinea/Solomons pretty quickly - by spring 1942. I don't think the Phillipines campaign really held up much of the Southwest Strategy - and that was Japan's path to victory.
 

Blackcloud6

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Without the Mariana's, you don't have land based bombers able to target Japanese industries in a meaningful way. We flew some out of China, but not without a crap load of supply issues.
The navy felt they would have been able to do attack the Japanese homeland from carriers and the AAF strategic bombing may have been unnecessary. They were conducting significant raids near the end of the war. Now that may be post-war posturing for resources. However, I think the real reason for taking the Marianas was to base the nuclear bombers. But the Marianas could have been taken without the central Pacific Campaign anyhow,
 

Blackcloud6

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IDK Blackcloud: Its not like Homma's Army was tasked to go anywhere else - they were pretty much just slated to occupy the Phillipines. As you say - air and naval superiority were established pretty quickly: Bataan and Corregidor were just a pocket of resistance. I don't think it threw the time table off by much - Horii and the South Seas detachment were operating indepently of Homma and they hit the Bismarcks/New Guinea/Solomons pretty quickly - by spring 1942. I don't think the Phillipines campaign really held up much of the Southwest Strategy - and that was Japan's path to victory.
What it probably did was tie up resources like fuel, ammunition and food... and importantly, the transports to get it there. Japans entire Pacific war was fought on a weak logistical shoestring. They never had enough oil (the reason many Japanese battleships did not sortie to the Solomons was due to not enough oil.)

Its always logistics.. always, especially in a global industrial war of attrition vs an industrial powerhouse. I don't think the Japanese ever figured that out.

Now what the US did and it fits with US strategic/operational thinking is it used a broad front strategy in the Pacific, just as it did in Europe, and thus the two pronged approach was taken that nearly conquered the whole of the Pacific. Operationally, this might not have seemed sound as a single thrust as I describe some posts above was doable, but with more risk. But strategically, and think now about the notion of a global industrial war of attrition the two pronged/broad front strategy makes sense as it plays tot he the strengths of the US: the ability to make a lot of matériel, man it, organize it , train it and get it to the fight anywhere on the globe. Thus this force hitting the Japanese across the Pacific wherever and whenever the US could, would wear them down regardless of tactical and operational outcomes. This is truly the "American Way of War" and is why nobody tries to fight the US this way anymore.
 

Blackcloud6

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Hindsight is 20-20 and they were pretty much finished after the Solomons campaign - but we didn't really knwo it until teh gilberts and the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.
Yes, the Japanese were defeated by the end Solomons but the Japanese could not come to grips with that. It may not have entered their minds because of hubris.

But their attack on pearl Harbor was a colossal blunder. They could have went after the Indonesian oil with out engaging the US. The US may not have even entered the fight; it certainly was not prepared to do so in the fall of 1941 and it may not have been politically possible for Roosevelt to enter the war in such a situation. The attack on pearl Harbor angered the US and triggered a war which had underlying fueling by racism. Thus it was vicious and final with Japan lying in utter ruination by war's end. And they deserved it.
 

Fort

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George Washington, far and away. IMHO, maybe the greatest General of all time. I can't think of anyone from such a poor starting position who ends up with defeating the world's superpower...then starting his fledgling country off in such an humble manner as he. If not for General Washington, there would be no America...he saved this country in perilous times on several occasions by his direct intervention.

IMHO, he is the greatest American...general or otherwise.
 

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His notable lack of success on hte battlefield counts against him though. I give Washington credit for realizing that by keeping an Army in the field - victory was inevitable: but he took a lot of beatings and didn't have any big strategic wins like Saratoga. Yorktown was pretty much just a siege and he doens't even win that wihtout teh french navy. He was a great leader and administrator - not sure I'd put him up there with great battlefield tacticians like Patton, Jackson and Gavin.
 

ChrisM

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What it probably did was tie up resources like fuel, ammunition and food... and importantly, the transports to get it there. Japans entire Pacific war was fought on a weak logistical shoestring. They never had enough oil (the reason many Japanese battleships did not sortie to the Solomons was due to not enough oil.)

Its always logistics.. always, especially in a global industrial war of attrition vs an industrial powerhouse. I don't think the Japanese ever figured that out.

Now what the US did and it fits with US strategic/operational thinking is it used a broad front strategy in the Pacific, just as it did in Europe, and thus the two pronged approach was taken that nearly conquered the whole of the Pacific. Operationally, this might not have seemed sound as a single thrust as I describe some posts above was doable, but with more risk. But strategically, and think now about the notion of a global industrial war of attrition the two pronged/broad front strategy makes sense as it plays tot he the strengths of the US: the ability to make a lot of matériel, man it, organize it , train it and get it to the fight anywhere on the globe. Thus this force hitting the Japanese across the Pacific wherever and whenever the US could, would wear them down regardless of tactical and operational outcomes. This is truly the "American Way of War" and is why nobody tries to fight the US this way anymore.
Really well thought out. I agree - logistics eluded the IJA and doomed them in a lot of ways.
 

Fort

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His notable lack of success on hte battlefield counts against him though. I give Washington credit for realizing that by keeping an Army in the field - victory was inevitable: but he took a lot of beatings and didn't have any big strategic wins like Saratoga. Yorktown was pretty much just a siege and he doens't even win that wihtout teh french navy. He was a great leader and administrator - not sure I'd put him up there with great battlefield tacticians like Patton, Jackson and Gavin.
In the end, winning the war not each battle is what mattered/matters....just ask Jackson would he rather he'd won battles...or the war. Washington did what few other leaders throughout history have done, he took on a superpower knowing he would lose most of the individual battles...and yet he formulated a strategy that would bring ultimate victory.
My vote stands.
 

Blackcloud6

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His notable lack of success on hte battlefield counts against him though. I give Washington credit for realizing that by keeping an Army in the field - victory was inevitable: but he took a lot of beatings and didn't have any big strategic wins like Saratoga. Yorktown was pretty much just a siege and he doens't even win that wihtout teh french navy. He was a great leader and administrator - not sure I'd put him up there with great battlefield tacticians like Patton, Jackson and Gavin.
"Success" on the battlefield, tactically is not always easy to define. And it is largely immaterial if you win the war. This is something Washington, and Giap understood well.
 

freightshaker

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- not sure I'd put him up there with great battlefield tacticians like Patton, Jackson and Gavin.
I'm not sure I'd use "great" and "Patton" in the same sentance. Although I must concede that given massive logistical support, overwhelming air superiority, and an enemy in full retreat, I can't think of a better commander.
 

Vinnie

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Patton was a great motivator and loved by his men. His complete disregard for logistical integrity of the army group marks him down in my mind.
 

Hovned31

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Benedict Arnold.
Actually, Arnold was a pretty decent battlefield commander. He is an object lesson in what happens when one lets ego and vanity get in the way of what would otherwise be a distinguished career.
 

trevpr1

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Actually, Arnold was a pretty decent battlefield commander. He is an object lesson in what happens when one lets ego and vanity get in the way of what would otherwise be a distinguished career.
It still was a distinguished career, from certain points of view
 

prymus

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I'd have to go with Geronimo or maybe Crazy Horse( Tasunka Witco)

Some of my heroes have always killed cowboys.
 

prymus

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I suppose badly, but that doesn't make them any less one of my heroes. I don't think that killing cowboys worked out as badly for them as being given blankets infected with scarlet fever, or being cheated out of the Black Hills, or being forced into eating rotten meat and insect riddled grain, or having their women, elders and children slaughtered for being "savages". A very good friend of mine had her family almost wiped out at Sand Creek, my wifes tribe was almost obliterated during the California expansion. So I think that there were a lot more things that worked out worse(and still are, 80% un-employment on the Rosebud rez) for them than the impact of killing cowboys.

Just sayin'. ;-)
 
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