Do you put -2 leaders on your designs?

Jacometti

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Not a designer, but take a look at the scenarios that have the 9-2 - 10-3 leaders in them...
Each seems to need to bust INTO a building in a short period of time, or get past/defend from a LARGE force in a short period of time.

So, the longer the game/engagement it seems by the few scenarios that pop into my head, the lesser quality of leader.
If you go to Beyond Valor, you will find extremely strong German leadership even in long scenarios. That was the flavour of the day, though.
 

Craig Benn

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I prefer scenarios without -2 leaders, although really it's the HMG/ -2 leader combo that I dislike. Once in a while is okay but there's a disproportionate number of scenarios with them. 9-2 armour leaders are less of a problem in that tanks still die easily and it doesn't give you a ROF advantage.

I won't voluntarily play a scenario with a 10-3 in it - only if I owe a favour. They're just silly.
 

witchbottles

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I prefer scenarios without -2 leaders, although really it's the HMG/ -2 leader combo that I dislike. Once in a while is okay but there's a disproportionate number of scenarios with them. 9-2 armour leaders are less of a problem in that tanks still die easily and it doesn't give you a ROF advantage.

I won't voluntarily play a scenario with a 10-3 in it - only if I owe a favour. They're just silly.
T1 Gavin Take is a classic, and likely one of the best balanced all infantry fights around, as well as being a perfect learning scenario sporting Mr 10-3 in all his glory. I'd voluntarily play Gavin Take any time. I would not consider it silly in the slightest as a design. Extremely well-done presentation of how to build a 10-3 into a tournament sized balanced scenario.
 

Craig Benn

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Gavin Take is definitely on my list of won't voluntarily play.
It might be balanced if you play it enough but in any individual playing generally it's going to come down to whether Gavin passes enough of his morale checks. You could play a near enough perfect game as the germans but if he passes them, you're going to lose.

It's a scenario with a small number of chess pieces, one of which is disproportionately more powerful than the others QED what happens to that piece will usually decide success or failure. If you're going to stick them in - it should at the least be a big scenario.

Other opinions may vary of course. "Silly" is perhaps a bit over the top - some scenarios with 10-3's are silly but a few are okay. Head of the mace springs to mind.

Gavin Take gets the thumbs down as well because I've had to play it so many times teaching newbs...
 

Mister T

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Even worse than Gavin Take is Shklovs Labors Lost. Two 10-3 dueling with each other for battlefield supremacy.
 

Jacometti

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Gavin Take is definitely on my list of won't voluntarily play.
It might be balanced if you play it enough but in any individual playing generally it's going to come down to whether Gavin passes enough of his morale checks. You could play a near enough perfect game as the germans but if he passes them, you're going to lose.

It's a scenario with a small number of chess pieces, one of which is disproportionately more powerful than the others QED what happens to that piece will usually decide success or failure. If you're going to stick them in - it should at the least be a big scenario.

Other opinions may vary of course. "Silly" is perhaps a bit over the top - some scenarios with 10-3's are silly but a few are okay. Head of the mace springs to mind.

Gavin Take gets the thumbs down as well because I've had to play it so many times teaching newbs...
Isn't Gavin Take the scenario where the Paratroopers must exit on/adjacent to one single road hex? Not one I would ever hope to play again.

It is short, it can be used for teaching new players.....but the ridiculous leadership and VC actually teaches what ASL is not best at (simulating complex tactical situations).
 

Eagle4ty

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Gavin Take (#181) does not have a 10-3 in either OB. Perhaps in an old rendition of the scenario (SL) it may have had one. Probably shouldn't lambaste a scenario based upon erroneous information or a failure to update your errata. Exiting on a single hex is a valid criticism.
 

jrv

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Gavin Take (#181) does not have a 10-3 in either OB. Perhaps in an old rendition of the scenario (SL) it may have had one. Probably shouldn't lambaste a scenario based upon erroneous information or a failure to update your errata. Exiting on a single hex is a valid criticism.
In both T1 & 181 the Americans have both a 10-3 leader and a 10-2 leader (and an 8-0). If you give me a 10-3 and a 10-2, I will accept exiting on one hex. Besides, Bore Sighting is NA. The Germans have 9-1, 8-1 and 8-0 leaders.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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In both T1 & 181 the Americans have both a 10-3 leader and a 10-2 leader (and an 8-0). If you give me a 10-3 and a 10-2, I will accept exiting on one hex. Besides, Bore Sighting is NA. The Germans have 9-1, 8-1 and 8-0 leaders.

JR
#@$! old eyes!:facepalm:
 

Jacometti

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If you give me a 10-3 and a 10-2, I will accept exiting on one hex. JR
My point about exiting on one hex was that this is a crap design - the designer should be ashamed of himself.

It was not suggested to be a trade-off with leadership.
 

jrv

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My point about exiting on one hex was that this is a crap design - the designer should be ashamed of himself.

It was not suggested to be a trade-off with leadership.
Not sure why exiting on one hex (vice thirteen hexes, or two hexes, or four hexes on even turns and six on odd ones) is such a moral depravity. It seems just as arbitrary as the others. But then I like 10-3 leaders in my scenarios too. Perhaps the choice is something that the player can make ("VC: the player must exit four VP off the north edge [EXC: the player may add a 10-3 to his OB and exit the four VP from hex I10 only].").

JR
 

buser333

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Don't -2 and -3 leaders seem to underperform for everybody anyway? I know mine always do!
 

Jacometti

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Not sure why exiting on one hex is such a moral depravity.

JR
The ASL game system rules and counters provide Scenario Designers with a fantastic array of options to recreate WWII tactical combat in a playable way.

Every fool can read a history book, put together a few half-maps and OBs and make up a VC to call it an ASL scenario. It may even be a fun or balanced game to play.

I would however contend that ASL scenario designers, given the tools at their disposal, should aim a lot higher than that.

VC which are extremely gamey or easily "undermined" by players are not part of that standard, in my view.

88 AA guns gaining double acquisition on an empty hex and waiting for 3 Turns before the Americans arrive is silly.

Digging a foxhole in the road hex and hoping your broken unit can totally block the exit there is equally silly.

The scenario designer had many options to define a VC that would recreate the feel of this battle. In my view, he failed in asking himself the simple question "would something else work better?"

Morally depraved - no. Showing distinct lack of imagination - yes.
 

jrv

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88 AA guns gaining double acquisition on an empty hex and waiting for 3 Turns before the Americans arrive is silly.

Digging a foxhole in the road hex and hoping your broken unit can totally block the exit there is equally silly.
There's no 88 AA gun in Gavin Take.

Presumably hex Q10 is start of the causeway that the Germans were defending. Since the Germans wanted to keep the Americans off the causeway, digging an entrenchment at its end makes perfect sense. A+ for historicity. The Germans do not set up in position to dig this foxhole on the first turn, so the Americans can get into position to prevent it. The Germans could try, but they could also fail with losses. Sounds just about right.

JR
 

Jacometti

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There's no 88 AA gun in Gavin Take.

Presumably hex Q10 is start of the causeway that the Germans were defending. Since the Germans wanted to keep the Americans off the causeway, digging an entrenchment at its end makes perfect sense. A+ for historicity. The Germans do not set up in position to dig this foxhole on the first turn, so the Americans can get into position to prevent it. The Germans could try, but they could also fail with losses. Sounds just about right.

JR
I must have mixed up Gavin Take with another old scenario much like this one. The one near Zon during Market Garden, which has the same feel (but 88s in Trenches).

Your suggestion that digging a foxhole in a causeway as you see the enemy approaching within a few hundred yards is "A+ for historicity"......you make me laugh.
 

witchbottles

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All I can say this is a scenario with over 500 recorded playings and lists as one of the most balanced in the system - with a 10-3 and a 10-2 on the map at the same time. Call it what you will, Gavin Take, it's got the right stuff if it gets played more than any other scenario in the system. And still manages to land in the 50/50 margin.

I'm not a particular fan of it for a teaching scenario, but only because I have played this one myself from both sides 11 times now - and sometimes you get burnt out on even a good, balanced scenario. Same reason that even though Hill 621 is on my "will play it again" list, It would not be my first choice if my opponent asked me for a recommendation. 14 times up and down that bloody hill now, I'll prefer to play something on my "want to play it at least once" list first, and keep scens like Hill 621 (another 10-3 and 9-2s on both sides), Point of No Return (oh another 10-3 there), Gavin Take, and A Bloody Harvest only a 9-2 there), and such for a fallback choice if we can't agree on anything else first, as at least I know they are balanced, how to play both sides well, and any game is better than no game.
 

Jacometti

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All I can say this is a scenario with over 500 recorded playings and lists as one of the most balanced in the system - with a 10-3 and a 10-2 on the map at the same time. Call it what you will, Gavin Take, it's got the right stuff if it gets played more than any other scenario in the system. And still manages to land in the 50/50 margin.

I'm not a particular fan of it for a teaching scenario, but only because I have played this one myself from both sides 11 times now - and sometimes you get burnt out on even a good, balanced scenario. Same reason that even though Hill 621 is on my "will play it again" list, It would not be my first choice if my opponent asked me for a recommendation. 14 times up and down that bloody hill now, I'll prefer to play something on my "want to play it at least once" list first, and keep scens like Hill 621 (another 10-3 and 9-2s on both sides), Point of No Return (oh another 10-3 there), Gavin Take, and A Bloody Harvest only a 9-2 there), and such for a fallback choice if we can't agree on anything else first, as at least I know they are balanced, how to play both sides well, and any game is better than no game.
There are plenty of newer scenarios which are equally good at teaching various ASL basics.

My favourite by far for teaching (and playing) infantry-only is Totensonntag from Friendly Fire.

Hill 621? I have played it twice in my life and will never play it again. The reverse-slope nonsense on that hill is just too much to bear.

Any game is better than no game, for sure. But as Mr T says, life is also too short to play bad scenarios.
 

witchbottles

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you can call reverse slope defense a "nonsense idea" if you wish. The fact remains, it was, and still is a valid, viable and taught well; sound military tactic. ASL is a game, so I have qualms about how well or poorly it tries to illustrate anything based on realism - you can't have realism in a game. Well, in ASL's case, it is a realistic simulation of a 1950s-1970's era WW2 fictional movie setting produces by Hollywood, or a times, perhaps even "B" rate Western European movie studios of the period. It is pretty realistic for that purpose.

But if it creates a mood or an idea of what challenges are faced by company-level to battalion level command staffs in any action, presents a few of the myriad of dilemmas they actually face in regards to terrain, tactics and troop availability - then ASL succeeds, and the scen design does as well, in my book at least, as a wargame.

As always, YMMV of course. Frankly, I think the # of 10-3s that appear in a RB CG III in the German side by around scenario 20 or so is ridiculous. Having more 10-3s in play than the countermix allows is a bit over the top. Again, YMMV.
 

Swiftandsure

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Refusing to have a 10-3 leader in a scenario because it is overpowered is like shunning a scenario because it has a Tiger in it.
All is in the VC and other design choices, such as the overall leadership quality (and the number of leaders).
Also, a player is very tempted to use his 10-3 daringly, thus reducing its survival probability. And even if he is careful, there are dangerous moves that one will make with less powerful leaders, which will put a 10-3 in harm's way (with a potentially bad outcome for it too).
 

Cult.44

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I agree that a 10-3 is over the top. It doesn't put me off playing a scenario but I would never use one in a design. I would hesitate to use a 10-2 or even 9-2 unless there's something clearly extraordinary about the leader involved.
 
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