Do you put -2 leaders on your designs?

jrv

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I have always felt that there should be a separate modifier for kindling. Even the most brilliant combat leader may not be a natural-born Boy Scout.

JR
 

bendizoid

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I have always felt that there should be a separate modifier for kindling. Even the most brilliant combat leader may not be a natural-born Boy Scout.

JR
The -2 represents the leaders ability to recognize the need for action as well as knowing the biggest pyro in the platoon.
 

jrv

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The -2 represents the leaders ability to recognize the need for action as well as knowing the biggest pyro in the platoon.
Perhaps, but if that is true, wouldn't that apply to combat results vs. rallying results? Minus three leaders know to send Audie Murphy to fire the .50 cal and Desmond Doss to rally the broken troops.

JR
 
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62nd Army

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Gentlemen

9-2s IMO are ok in a good # of scenarios, 10-3,10-2 can be deal breakers in all but the large urban scenarios IMO. Naturally this is ASL, so there are always exceptions to this.

Thanks
Joe
 

stuh42asl

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A 10-3 is sniper bait..........every scenario, or campaign game I have done the 10-3 always dies by a single bullet. I have even loaded the hex and surrounding hexes with viable targets and the magic bullet still gets him........So I usually keep him in a bunker stuffed with bullet proof vests and the radios and maps he needs.
 

ecz

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my opinion is that the presence/absence of a 9-2 leader cannot save o ruin a design. Simply it is not a decisive factor to judge a scenario. There are too many other more important things to consider before.

In general I have nothing against a 9-2 leader. Maximize its impact or limit it to the lower possible role is just another typical challenge of the skilled ASL player
 

Swiftandsure

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I have had 10-3 faring well and never having been attacked by a sniper.
Having a 10-3 being killed each time by a sniper is extremely improbable.
 
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Nice discussion. One of the BEST uses of good leaders is CC mods ( -2, -3). This often results in ambush and with the - mod -> dead enemy.

Hexes in RB that have continuous buildings are red rags to a bull, if conscripts are the opposition its virtually a " how many game turns are there till I get all of these." In such circumstances its better to just " get out of the way".

One of the hardest parts if the game does not have lots of +3 TEM is whether to use them as rally points OR as MMG leaders.
 

Vinnie

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I'll use them without a second thought if the circumstances warrant.
They are powerful but just one unit.
 

witchbottles

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the fanatic solution can work nicely for a well grounded and stubborn 9-1 that will man the guns till the enemy is gone or he is, makes him effectively a 10-1 for those nationalities without them. The heroic solution does nothing to negate the withering fire from a 50 cal or HMG kill stack with -2 or -3 leadership. Up the other guy's SAN, the 9-2 or 10-2 becomes much more circumspect as to who he going to crank off shots at all day with a higher ROF weapon. (SAN:5 is a scary proposition to face in all but monster size scens with a 9-2 or a 10-2). Give the other guy something that kills HM?G led kill stacks effectively at long ranges without fear of reprisal to balance it out, like a StuG III (G), and its beautiful smoke to negate the -2 or -3 led fire with a few well-placed smoke rounds. Now both sides have to make the hard choices of who and when to engage and when to advance or fall back.

They are not hard to put into a scen and balance it. They do require thinking beyond the basic 1 inf company vs 1 inf company in NW europe terrain model to do so.

KRL, Jon H
 

wrongway149

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The risk of them somewhat unbalancing a game is admittedly somewhat greater than compared to other units. But a working FT or a HMG with a ROF tear can do just the same.

von Marwitz
There are ways to mitigate their effects as well, For example, I just designed one with British paratroops on D-Day that uses a 9-2. His best SW is a single LMG, and his troops will be spread too thin for a kill stack to be good play in most cases. And he spent most of the first playtest game pinned.
 

witchbottles

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I have always felt that there should be a separate modifier for kindling. Even the most brilliant combat leader may not be a natural-born Boy Scout.

JR
When was the last war movie you saw where the NCO in charge didn't have a match or a lighter for his cigarette?!?!? (After all, brilliant combat leaders and commissioned officers are not capable of being one and the same ;) .. ) And ASL is nothing if not a simulation of war movies. :D
 

Pyth

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I feel that 9-2, 10-2 and 10-3 are a major problem in scenario balance: when directing fire they reduce stone building to woods, in ambush pull out ambushes that completely modify the landscape, normal units bounce back from broken status as if they were fanatic, not to mention those fanatic which you are almost guarantee to have immediately back.
So I stay well away from -2 when desigining scenarios, in case the episode really deserve a -2 I tend to minimize the impact making him heroic, this usually reduce his permanence on the battlefield if used too aggressively.

and you?
I like to play around with alternate rules and one rule I'm particularly fond of is capping all leadership mods at -1 except for a designated 'talent' that gets the full -3. Most superleaders would be "morale" leaders. So, a 10-3 morale leader would modify IFT/CC and ambush at -1, but uses the full -3 for rallies/MC. He's not great at everything, but his men will walk thru fire for him. An ambush leader is a commando type, a close quarters specialist, who is -1 for all things, but -3 for ambush. And lastly -3 fire control leader is... discouraged... but they are possible and I'm sure you get the concept. What I like is the SSR improves balance and realism and still preserves some of the legitimate excitement the super leaders create. It's not burdensome records wise either. Ob's rarely have more than two -2's or -3's, so It's no challenge to remember your -2's are morale leaders. Anyone else think this idea is as attractive as I do? Consider the SSR.

*EDIT*** Jeez -- that'll larn me for not reading the whole thread before posting! Missed Fort's post entirely. Well. I'm in good company.
 

witchbottles

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I really would've preferred leaders having a second modifier to separate morale effects from tactical skill.
It would make the higher modifier leaders less problematic in scenario design.

For example, a 9-2-1 would have -2 modifier for all morale dependent DR and a -1 modifier for all attack based DR.
This would allow much greater variety in leaders.
Those 10-3 and 6+1 leaders that currently occupied a plastic counter tray prison would see more play if they were 10-3-1 or 10-3-2 or even 10-3+1 and 6+1-2 might be useful on a rear MG nest.

And, as a bonus, this change could easily be added to the game by simply stating that a leader with only one modifier number has the same value for both...making reissuing old counters unnecessary.
kind of illustrates in my mind the purpose of a 7-1 or a 10-1 for all nationalities.

the 10-1 is the dedicated to the cause higher echelon leader forced by circumstance into the battlefield and away from the HQ where he normally occupies. He will fight, he knows how to fight, but he long since beyond the age or experience of daily tactical situations so he only gets the -1 DRM.

the 7-1 is the natural fighter who understands the tactical requirements of the moment hence the -1 DRM, and the men trust his combat abilities- so he can influence them with that -1 DRM. But he is not an experienced leader of men, or the men in the unit are not sure of this new guy who just took over 3rd platoon yesterday from the repple-depple. Plus he is a product of the ninety day ( or 60 day or 30 day) wonder variety 2nd Lt's - or chosen as one man in 10 conscripts for additional training as an NCO - but in both cases, not dedicated to the cause or the service per se - so his ML is only a 7.
 

Tim Niesen

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Don and I were talking about this the other day, 10-3 AL should be only representative of Michael Wittman. In the case where you have a historical situation where that there were numerous winners of medals; for example, the China Marines who became infantry leaders in 1941 and 1942, many excellent leaders, but not 10-3s, seem appropriate. See my friend John Gordon's great book about their heroics. Tim
 

Jeffrey D Myers

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I'm a newbie designer, but in DB116 I used a Heroic 9-2 leader to make him a bit more brittle. Balance has proven pretty even on ROAR (thanks for maintaining that, JRV!)....

He was the captain of a company later taken over by the author of _Company Commander_.
 

Carln0130

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I'm a newbie designer, but in DB116 I used a Heroic 9-2 leader to make him a bit more brittle. Balance has proven pretty even on ROAR (thanks for maintaining that, JRV!)....

He was the captain of a company later taken over by the author of _Company Commander_.
+1 on the ROAR shoutout to JRV.
 

Jacometti

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Chris and I generally use -2 leaders to scenarios with either a) historically proven strong leadership or b) a fairly large infantry OB with a lot of leaders as per LG.

We have never used a 10-3 but under the conditions above we could use them. Probably only in high TEM terrain.

We are much more cautious about HMGs (as well as 3 ROF AT guns against infantry), which we feel are a worse destabiliser of scenarios than a good leader.
 

Stewart

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Not a designer, but take a look at the scenarios that have the 9-2 - 10-3 leaders in them...
Each seems to need to bust INTO a building in a short period of time, or get past/defend from a LARGE force in a short period of time.

So, the longer the game/engagement it seems by the few scenarios that pop into my head, the lesser quality of leader.
 
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