ASL 111 Balkan Sideshow

[WaterRabbit]

Hi all,
I just finished playing this and I don't really see how the Yugos have a chance. This seems to be 3 turns too long, plus the Hungarian has an extreme amount of control over how he engages the Yugos.

With most of the Yugo force being Green and so few leaders it makes the force very brittle. The Yugo has very little AT capability -- one LMG, 2 MMGs and 1 AT gun. The AT gun can kill any tank, but have very limited placement capability given the broad front that must be defended.

Anyone win this with the Yugo and what strategy did you employ?

 

[jrv]

Anyone win this with the Yugo and what strategy did you employ?

Strategy: block the bridge. Both wires on the bridge & some AT mines. Run most of the retreating forces over the bridge. Leave a stalwart force of 2nd liners to delay the attackers. My opponent chose to send cavalry swimming on both flanks, but only a platoon or two each, and with relatively little covering fire. Both his Guns were eliminated by a MMG, squad, -1 leader combo before they could unload. The same MMG also broke the Hungarian 9-2 kill stack. The AT Gun was in the obvious woods hex by the bridge, and managed to kill a large number of AFVs.

Hungarian strategy: send most/all the cavalry swimming. The cavalry will take casualties (-2 DRM for cavalry, two turns to cross), but many will survive.

Sleaze: Schrodinger's Wire. The Yugos move first, the wires are HIP, and whenever a fortification is HIP, the movement costs are zero. So you can run one stack of the retreating yugos (leader, 3xsquad) all the way across the bridge (leader, road, CX) and the second stack half way across the bridge before the Hungarians can enter and force the Wire into existence. If necessary, voluntarily break to get across the final hex.

JR

 

[WaterRabbit]

Strategy: block the bridge. Both wires on the bridge & some AT mines.

This part is obvious. However, the Hungarians were able to win without crossing the bridge.

Run most of the retreating forces over the bridge. Leave a stalwart force of 2nd liners to delay the attackers.

Wire prevents this in addition you only get one movement turn with green units that have 3 mf. These units will never get over the bridge and there really isn't a good place for them to make a last stand due to the amount of armor and lack of defensible terrain near the bridge.

My opponent chose to send cavalry swimming on both flanks, but only a platoon or two each, and with relatively little covering fire.

Lucky for you that he facilitated his own defeat by allowing you to defeat him in detail.

Both his Guns were eliminated by a MMG, squad, -1 leader combo before they could unload. The same MMG also broke the Hungarian 9-2 kill stack.

The Hungarian guns were completely superflous.

The AT Gun was in the obvious woods hex by the bridge, and managed to kill a large number of AFVs.

This is probably the key to the Yugo defense, but a gun in 49T1 is fairly exposed despite its good field of fire.

Hungarian strategy: send most/all the cavalry swimming. The cavalry will take casualties (-2 DRM for cavalry, two turns to cross), but many will survive.

The Hungarian strategy seems obvious -- it seems to me they have at least two turns to spare.

Sleaze: Schrodinger's Wire. The Yugos move first, the wires are HIP, and whenever a fortification is HIP, the movement costs are zero. So you can run one stack of the retreating yugos (leader, 3xsquad) all the way across the bridge (leader, road, CX) and the second stack half way across the bridge before the Hungarians can enter and force the Wire into existence. If necessary, voluntarily break to get across the final hex.

This is not allowed by the rules. Only at night or in dense jungle, kunai, bamboo and swamp and only for pillbox/entrenchment -- not for wire.
JR[/QUOTE]

 

[maxwelk]

This is not allowed by the rules. Only at night or in dense jungle, kunai, bamboo and swamp and only for pillbox/entrenchment -- not for wire.
JR

NON!

Schrodinger's Wire lives on! Read A12.33 very carefully - especially the sentence "A unit entering/exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so, provided that Fortification remains hidden including Infantry/Cavalry (only) crossing a roadblock hexside."

So our Yugos get to scurry thru the wire for at least as long as no one's watching. However, before we get too carried away with sparkling Yugo performance in the slalom event, let's move on to Heisenberg's Rabble -

"A10.41 - Voluntary Break - Units within both the LOS and Normal Range per A10.532 of an armed, unbroken Known enemy ground - and/or ADJACENT to any unbroken enemy ground unit - may voluntrily break (even if pinned) at the start of the RtPh so as to be able to rout during that RtPh(but only if breaking will not cause their immediate Reduction or elimination)."

Dang! Just when Ilsa was thinking of trading in her Porsche Tiger....

 

[Pitman]

No, I don't think that works. No rule book handy, but I don't think that Wire can be "entered" or "exited." You can only be above or below the wire.

 

[paulkenny]

Sleaze: Schrodinger's Wire. The Yugos move first, the wires are HIP, and whenever a fortification is HIP, the movement costs are zero.

JR

HUH!!!!!!!!!!

:surprise: :huh1: :scream: :lier:

 

[paulkenny]

A12.53:... A unit entering/exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so...

B26.4 There is no additional cost for Infantry to enter a Wire Location...


When entering they are placed on top of the wire. To exit they must get below the wire. This is separate from exiting the Fortification.

Therefore and thus your sleaze is illegal.

 

[jrv]

A12.53:... A unit entering/exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so...

B26.4 There is no additional cost for Infantry to enter a Wire Location...


When entering they are placed on top of the wire. To exit they must get below the wire. This is separate from exiting the Fortification.

Therefore and thus your sleaze is illegal.

I did ask Perry at the time (because I felt bad about doing it), and he seemed to think that that was how it is played. It seems a clarification is in order. For now I'm betting that schroedinger's wire will live on, but it won't be decided until I open the e-mail.

JR

 

[Brian W]

I did ask Perry at the time (because I felt bad about doing it), and he seemed to think that that was how it is played. It seems a clarification is in order. For now I'm betting that schroedinger's wire will live on, but it won't be decided until I open the e-mail.

JR

But, you can't double time during the same turn that enter a wire location (NASLRBH), so I don't know if this sleaze is doable. Additonally, you cannot voluntarily break under any circumstances (sounds like you need at least one KEU in normal range).

 

[jrv]

Additonally, you cannot voluntarily break under any circumstances (sounds like you need at least one KEU in normal range).

I didn't express myself clearly about this point. I meant that after the Hungarians enter and force the wire into existence, you could voluntary break the second stack (which would be under the first wire on the bridge with the second wire yet to cross) during the Hungarian first turn so as to get a head start on crossing the wire. I didn't mean to VB during the Yugo first turn. As you say, because there's no KEU in LOS, it's not allowed.

JR

 

[WaterRabbit]

So in essence you believe the only way the Yugos can win is by a dubious tactic? That is the only strategy for them? Try the hidden fortification sleaze, which cannot be use by units using Double Time and it is doubtful that a A12.33 even applies to wire.

Hmm...So I wonder how this worked in playtest since I doubt that would the the tactic of choice.

Also the Armor cars have enough movement to eliminate any broken units -- unless you expose the AT gun to protect them. However, at that point the Hungarian now knows where the Gun is located and can keep his other tanks out of LOS until the infantry destroy it.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

...Try the hidden fortification sleaze, which cannot be use by units using Double Time and it is doubtful that a A12.33 even applies to wire...

I've been following this aspect for a bit and I'm not sure I understand how it is considered doubtful this rule does NOT apply to wire. Wire IS a fortification and if the conditions are met to pass through without Enemy LOS, why would it be otherwise? I don't think the intent of any rules is for players to add conditions and exceptions on their own; the rule says "fortifications", wire is a fortification. What's to confuse?

While I'd like to take a look-see at this scenario, as of yet I haven't had the chance just yet. Any more details on how your playing panned out?

 

[apbills]

Do you "enter/Exit" a wire counter? That is the question.

As previously pointed out, A26.4 states there is no additional cost to enter a Wire Location.

It then talks about moving below the Wire counter. A "Wire Exit dr" is used to determine the cost to move beneath the Wire counter. Once beneath the wire, the unit may freely exit the Location.

The wording in A12.33 states "A unit entering/ exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so,..."

So in this case, what are the costs to "enter/exit" a wire counter (Fortification)?

I don't like it, but I think the sleaze fits within the rules. It costs nothing to enter the Wire, and nothing to exit the wire. In effect you move from on the wire to below the wire at no cost.

 

[rglesing@indot.]

It seems to me the question is: Is there a difference between entering a Fortification and entering a Fortification's location? Some fortifications CAN actually be entered (foxholes, trenches, pillboxes), but with others you can only enter their location. What was the original intent of the rule's author(s)? [I, myself, have always interpreted and played the rule such that the presence of any/all fortifications, if HIP and out of enemy LOS, was in no way taken into account while moving my infantry or cavalry.]

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Do you "enter/Exit" a wire counter? That is the question.

As previously pointed out, A26.4 states there is no additional cost to enter a Wire Location.

It then talks about moving below the Wire counter. A "Wire Exit dr" is used to determine the cost to move beneath the Wire counter. Once beneath the wire, the unit may freely exit the Location.

The wording in A12.33 states "A unit entering/ exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so,..."

If I may, let me say I think there's FAR too much thought going into what appears to be a simple point. The rules say you can enter a fortification without paying extra MF/MP, wire IS a fortification therefore (COWTRA) you can under the circumstances noted, pass through the hex as it is not there.

To me, the precedent for something like this is in the DC vs Wire and Wire-topped pillbox vs DC situations. In both of those, the DC can be placed without any penalty, in effect, it is not there. Again, I don't think parsing the sentences for varying levels of entry-/moving beneath- costs is relevant to the plain and simple statement of A12.33...


...of course, I have been known to be mistaken

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Do you "enter/Exit" a wire counter? That is the question.

The only difference between wire and shellholes, foxholes, trenches and pillboxes for movement purposes is that movement beneath wire is of variable MF cost. Otherwise, paying to move beneath ANY of them requires a seperate and distinct MF cost. So, yes, I think you do enter/exit a wire Location.

 

[WaterRabbit]

[QUOTE='Ol Fezziwig]...IS a fortification therefore (COWTRA) you can under the circumstances noted, pass through the hex as it is not there...[/QUOTE]

Anytime someone puts COWTRA in their arugment they are mistaken and the rest of what they have written is ignored. :cheeky:

Also if you are going to cite precendent, then the Night and Jungle rules seem to fit this better. The A12.23 clearly references entering/exiting THE fortification and not moving through the fortificaiton.

However, the wire cost discussion is a sideline to this. Even granting the Yugo this ability, I still think the Hungarian has at least two more turns than he needs to win this scenario.

I was looking for someone who had a strategy for defeating the Hungarian that didn't get his force killed on the first turn by a competent attacker.

IMHO, VBing your units on the bridge gets them killed. From the board edge to the brige hex is 9 MF using Road rate, leader bonus, and CX. Since you cannot VB on the first Player turn, you will be stuck in the open with on top of a Wire counter since by the rules you could not have moved under since you used CX.

Because regardless of A12.23, B26.46 prevents units from moving beneath wire if they used Double Time on that turn.

So on the Hungarian player turn, he moves an AC up to PB range. This forces the Yugo to expose his Gun to prevent the loss of his squad if they VB to get across the bridge because at that point they will have to make the wire exit dr. If this
AC is destroyed, the other AC can approach the bridge from the other side and be able to get into an interdiction postion to prevent the Yugo from VBing for free.

So, this looks like a losing strategy to me.

 

[WaterRabbit]

[QUOTE='Ol Fezziwig]The only difference between wire and shellholes, foxholes, trenches and pillboxes for movement purposes is that movement beneath wire is of variable MF cost. Otherwise, paying to move beneath ANY of them requires a seperate and distinct MF cost. So, yes, I think you do enter/exit a wire Location.[/QUOTE]

Also not that A12.23 does not use the word Location. It merely states that "A unit entering/exiting a hidden Fortification pays no MF/MP to do so, provided that Fortification remains hidden including Infantry/Cavalry (only) crossing a roadblock hexside."

A unit cannot enter wire.

 

[apbills]

Also not that A12.23 does not use the word Location. ...

A unit cannot enter wire.

Also note that when you roll your Wire Exit dr, the number of MF does not include any to exit the Location. It only allows you to move beneath the wire counter. I'm not sure, but I would equate "Wire Exit dr" with the cost to exit the fortification.

Given they added the "including Infantry/Cavalry (only) crossing a roadblock hexside" to the rules, I have no problem with no Wire Exit dr required if HIP.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

I was looking for someone who had a strategy for defeating the Hungarian that didn't get his force killed on the first turn by a competent attacker.

I've been lustily eyeballing this scenario; I'll try to give it a look over the weekend.