ASL 111 Balkan Sideshow

[Richard Weiley]

It's a shame this issue wasn't caught and addressed by MMP during the playtesting of this scenario.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

It's a shame this issue wasn't caught and addressed by MMP during the playtesting of this scenario.

I believe someone mentioned, either earlier in the thread or elswhere, that Perry was aware of this and was under the belief that this was the way it was being playtested. Not exactly the best answer or manner of playtesting (it should have been verified yea or nay), but leads me to believe he was aware of the potential issue in some manner.

I think the issue becomes one of players trying to read too much into what constitutes a 'fortification' and thus the applicibility of a unit to pass through them without penalty. Strictly from a playability standpoint, ignoring wire, especially when there are no ENEMY units on board, seems 'right'- otherwise you may as well just put the damn counters onboard in full sight...

 

[David Reinking]

So, is the consensus that one can move thru Wire without paying the random dr cost to move below it unnecessary if there are no Enemy units with LOS to the Wire?

 

[Tater]

[quote='Ol Fezziwig]Strictly from a playability standpoint, ignoring wire, especially when there are no ENEMY units on board, seems 'right'- otherwise you may as well just put the damn counters onboard in full sight...[/quote]

This, by itself is the most convincing argument I have seen. The whole point of HIP for fortifications is Fog-O-War. Thus, if wire is in effect for friendlies even when HIP then 99% of the reason for the rule is eliminated. That just makes no sense.

BTW, I am playing this scenario Friday night (was scheduled before I found this thread). I am playing the Yugo's...I plan on incorporating some of the suggestions I found here. I will advise on the results.

PS - I will consult with my opponent at the start on the wire issue.

 

[Chas]

I am not trying to necessarily offer a reality argument. But part of a defense is cleverly placed gaps not visible to the enemy so that friendly forces can move through the wire.

I also think that if MMP thought this was how it was being playtested, that is their interpretation of the rule.

Chas

 

[Richard Weiley]

Still, I think there are a lot of players out there to whom it wouldn't immediately occur that wire could be used in this way (myself included).

I think some official clarification from MMP would be useful in this case.

 

[jrv]

Still, I think there are a lot of players out there to whom it wouldn't immediately occur that wire could be used in this way (myself included).

I think some official clarification from MMP would be useful in this case.

When this thread began, lo these many years ago, and someone pointed out that not being able to move through Wire while CX was not the same as it costing zero points, I sent a request for clarification off to MMP. Perry has never let me down, although it may be a while before he gets to it. I'll let everyone know when I receive the response.

JR

 

[Tater]

I won as the Yugo’s…

Attached is my original set-up:
View attachment 15337

The MMC at the top are my entering forces (the PNG didn’t get them all). But it does indicate my planned entry.


The PB in 40 U1 was totally useless as my Hun opponent decided to attack directly into my hill defense. I think that may have been a mistake (more on that later). In general I incorporated the suggestions of 'Ol Fezziwig. With the notable exception of placing the ATG in 40R1. I considered several other placements but in the end it just felt right…and as it turned out it was.


The Hun sent in the AC to scout out…I whacked one with a MG TH/TK (I killed more AFV with my MMG’s than with the ATG). The other was taken out by the ATG. However, the AC’s did reveal both PB and the ATG. One scout car managed to break the 6+1 (disrupted) but failed to harm the 3 squads stacked with him. The 6+1 remained in 40Q2 till practically the end of the game when he soaked off a berserk Hun. The rest of my entry force (8-0, 457, 437 x 6) raced for the hill 520 area.


On turn two the Hun brought on most of his forces with the exception of the Guns/trucks. He decided to drive me off the hill and to attempt to swim the river on the Yugo extreme right. He drove the 4 Hun go-carts up to the rivers edge to cover the swim meet. They weren’t much help.


Once I saw where the cav was going I shifted my 8-1, 457/MMG to the bridge house (40R1). From there I had very good LOS down the river. I had also moved a 457/LMG (one of the sprinters from the board edge) to 49L10. This in combination with 40H1 and 40C2 managed to eliminate about 8-9 cav squads. The go-carts 4FP BMG wasn’t much good for him.


Here is the problem with the swim meet…unless the bridge is under pressure the Yugo has nothing else to shoot at but the swimmers. Also, all the cav needs to go in the water at once. Any type of piecemeal crossing is doomed. IOW, it is a matter of critical timing…the bridge has to be under pressure and you need to hit the water with 7-9 cav at the same time. Otherwise the Yugo can concentrate on the swimmers which means they don’t get across.


The other issue is the Yugo’s on the hill. It took the Hun 5 full turns to completely clear the hill for his firebase. But on the turn he cleared the hill my 49Q9 FG went on a tear with the MMG breaking both Hun MMG squads. He was never able to really get the deathstar back in place to any great effect. Because of the difficulty clearing the hill the Hun wasn’t able to start his bridge assault going until about turn 6. And the assault was pretty much a piecemeal affair as Hun units ran from the hill to join in. By then the cav were decimated…which meant the Yugo could then concentrate on the bridge defense. By turn 8 it had become a mad dash. The Hun drove 2 of the go-carts across (neither hitting mines or bogging on wire). However both ended up being taken out by MG fire. One in bypass of the bridge house blazed up. This turned out very well for me since the TEM of stone building, smoke, and bridge hinder (+6-7 DRM) made any shots at that location unlikely to have an effect while my shots at point blank (8-1, 457/MMG & ATG) into the 40Q2 bridge location remained fairly harsh vs any moving enemy infantry/vehicles.


On bottom of 9 I finally broke his back with a MMG ROF tear that whacked his 9-2 & 447/MMG & HS/MMG (leaving both MMG lying in the street).


The 105’s never made a showing. One truck was immobilized as it came on with the crew breaking and routing away…never to return. The other 105 made it to the hill where my handy dandy MMG in 49Q9 cracked him and then with ROF eliminated the crew. That 105 got off one shot before the crew was dusted. Once again, I was able to concentrate on a critical Hun asset because the cav river swim had already failed and the bridge assault was just starting up in a piecemeal fashion.


The FT’s and DC’s got caught up in the hill clearing business. The FT squad got nailed by a sniper. He got nailed again to a HS…then the 8-0 stacked with him got nailed by a sniper and died…taking the FT HS with him (LLMC).


I still believe the Hun has the advantage mainly due to time. However, he MUST manage the timing of his attack. Dropping a couple of cav into the water each turn is not good. He needs to have at least 6 cav start swimming at the same time he is pressuring the bridge. One without the other is going to be a problem.


I think the Hun should ignore any Yugo’s on the hill. Consider that without SW weapons the Yugo’s on level 2 of the hill can’t even reach the bridge locations with any firepower (EXC: 1x457). I would make an all out break for the bridge with a skirmish line between my axis of attack (hey didle-didle straight up the middle) and any Yugo’s on the hill. The exception being 2-3 cav on each flank to hold Yugo’s in place. The rest of the cav (8-10 squads) head for the bridge. If the Yugo’s on the hill expose themselves at a crest line hammer them, otherwise, forget them.


So the Hun drives and rides straight for the bridge. He drives the go-carts on the bridge and stops (or gets nailed by AT mines) to create TEM/hinders. He lays smoke grenades from the vehicles/infantry and he tries to move on the bridge at the same time the cav is swimming across right beside/under the bridge. While the Yugo is dealing with this the Guns roll on to get into position to drop smoke/HE on Yugo positions. The 9-2/447x2/MMGx2 set up to hammer any exposed Yugo’s. Use the tanks to hinder Yugo movement or to watch the hillbillies. Basically, the Yugo is constantly presented with multiple threats which he must pick and choose between with his limited FP. The key is timing!


At least that is how I would try it as the Hun…at least once anyway.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Nice AAR Dahth Tatah; I agree, any concerted multi-pronged move will strain the Yugos dearly. I think, never the less, it goes to show the Yugos can win, though they must plan for a drawn-out affair. Skulking, hitting piecemeal assaults hard and being a general nuisance t'other side of the river are all arrows in the quiver that must employed to the fullest as they must in many AoO scenarios.

 

[Mike Murphy]

I won as the Yugo’s…

Attached is my original set-up:
15337

...At least that is how I would try it as the Hun…at least once anyway.

Tate,

I'm going to see what happens when I play this setup (or something similar) today. Thanks for your ideas.

Mike

 

[Matt Romey]

To you guys who have played it: are the swimming cavalry necessary? Or a Style Point Red Herring (TM)?

 

[Gunner Scott]

To you guys who have played it: are the swimming cavalry necessary? Or a Style Point Red Herring (TM)?

Hi Matt-

Ya its a nessassity to get across the River. Most Yugo players will place their road block, wire and mines around the bridge an the ATG in hex 40R1. The retreating yugo's make life even worse for the Axis player due to taking cover in buildings and behind wall's on board 40.

So basically your looking at two to three turns of clearing the retreating yugo force and then trying to get across the river while braving 4 down 2 shots left and right.

A really badly designed action that could have been a classic.


Scott

 

[Pitman]

I played it and did not find it "really badly designed." I won as the Yugoslavs against a good player, but it could have gone the other way--the Yugoslav force is very brittle.

Swimming is necessary. Luckily, the scenario gives you enough time to do it.

 

[rdw5150]

"A really badly designed action that could have been a classic."

I am afraid I am confused.....

How can it be badly designed and still "could have been a classic"....

From what I read this one is being played a lot. That tells me something. Then again, maybe its just because its "new". <SHRUG>

but either way, it seems to be getting a lot of play and would also seem that the Yugos have at least a fighting chance.

Peace

Roger

 

[Tater]

A really badly designed action that could have been a classic.

Once again confirming that you know so little about actually playing ASL.

The Hun's can not try to swim piecemeal. They need to time hitting the water with all their swimmers about the same time their legs are going after the bridge. The Yugo's won't have enough shots to go around.

I also wonder if the Hun's should trying swimming beside the bridge and in concert with their land assault on the bridge?

Anyway, it is a great scenario...

[ASL Knowledge Base Rule #87: If Holst doesn't like the scenario then it must be a classic!]

:laugh:

 

[Gunner Scott]

Oh please Tater, If this scenario was by some other company, you would be the first in line to start ranting about it.


Scott

Once again confirming that you know so little about actually playing ASL.

The Hun's can not try to swim piecemeal. They need to time hitting the water with all their swimmers about the same time their legs are going after the bridge. The Yugo's won't have enough shots to go around.

I also wonder if the Hun's should trying swimming beside the bridge and in concert with their land assault on the bridge?

Anyway, it is a great scenario...

[ASL Knowledge Base Rule #87: If Holst doesn't like the scenario then it must be a classic!]

:laugh:

 

[Pitman]

The latest RBF has a scenario analysis of this scenario (though it only analyzes it from the point of view of the defender).

I thought it was interesting that the author believed, strongly, that the entering Yugoslav forces should try to make their way across the river and join the other defending forces there.

This was the exact opposite of my opinion, the one time I have played it so far. To try to do so, I felt, would expose those troops to unnecessary risk and not use them to full advantage.

Aside from a few little tricks and things, my vision for the best use of those troops was to move them onto the wooded hill where they would have a position overlooking any bridge or river crossing, and thus force the Axis to go after them in order to protect their crossing. I envisioned a slow defense, retreating up the hill there (possibly digging a foxhole or two to help out), to hold out as long as possible.

To my mind the biggest problem for the Yugoslavs is that it is a long scenario and they have a brittle force. Thus they need to do two things: 1) delay the Axis as long as possible, and 2) conserve their own forces as much as possible, especially those forces defending the other side of the river, through skulkcraft, clever use of dummies, choosing positions where they can't easily be fired upon, but can have an effect on units crossing the bridge and/or river, etc.

The river crossing is slow, and the Axis will also have to take time to dismount, etc., unless they really want to risk getting shot up, so it is really all about having enough Yugo guys surviving intact into the end game.

I don't think that trying to scoot the retreating Yugos across the bridge is a good way to do it. It means they won't be slowing the Axis, they won't be in good defensive positions, they may be exposing themselves to nasty fire, and they will have to do things like get across their own wire, unless it is for some reason not placed to obstruct units crossing the bridge.

What do you think?

 

[Tater]

The latest RBF has a scenario analysis of this scenario (though it only analyzes it from the point of view of the defender).

I thought it was interesting that the author believed, strongly, that the entering Yugoslav forces should try to make their way across the river and join the other defending forces there.

I split the entering Yugo's. I sent a platoon across the river (with the 6+1 and the LMG) while the rest went for the hill.

However, I am not sure this works as well if the Hun's go straight for the bridge, attacking the bridge while swimming the cav across right by the bridge.

Because of the ranges involved the Hun could just clear the side of the hill facing the bridge (not the whole hill). And since the Yugo has to cover the whole river to some extent he can't pile everything on the other side right by the bridge...nor can the Yugo have both PB pointed right at the bridge. Also, the Hun sort of dancing around the periphery trying to find a safe place to swim the cav would seem to play right into the Yugo's "delay" plan.

OTOH, a direct, fast, vicious Hun assault right at the bridge (with 90% of available force) would be very quick and would only allow the Yugo to have a limited amount of his force in play...at least for a couple of turns. Even if the Hun gets a stubbed toe on the initial thrust it wouldn't be bad because the Hun has so much time to recover.

So many options...so much fun. What a classic! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Pitman]

I guess no one else has any opinions on the RBF article's suggestions? Just Tate and me?

 

[J. R. Tracy]

I doubt many folks have RBF3, let alone have read the article.

JR