Why do you think people identify so much with the German Army?

[MatrimSaric]

And the Germans were successful earlier in the war because they won this avoidance of equality you speak of.

The Germans didn't have a single unit in WW2 capable of matching a Maori, Gurkha, US Elite Para, etc. unit. You can call in your best Waffen SS unit....any of those three units I've mentioned in an 'even fight' as you put it would absolutely rinse the German unit.

Christ Mad Jack Churchill brought a German down with a bow and arrow....and you think the Germans would win in an even fight :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Its admittedly a ridiculous way to compare. But thinking about it logically I would still take a german line division against a us line division british etc etc.

Elite units perhaps not. If it was an elite comparison then A US Airborne or UK Airborne division would be my top choices. The SS were not up to that standard. The thing is most of the army is not Elite paras and most of the army is 1st and 2nd line and I think the German army has an easy advantage.

Continuing comparisons I would also take the German tactical support air force but the US strategic airforce. Probably the US Navy over all comers as well.....

 

[Brian W]

It was simply never part of a written protocol, sorry Brian,

Wow. Amazing. Astounding even.

 

[Martin Mayers]

Its admittedly a ridiculous way to compare. But thinking about it logically I would still take a german line division against a us line division british etc etc.

Elite units perhaps not. If it was an elite comparison then A US Airborne or UK Airborne division would be my top choices. The SS were not up to that standard. The thing is most of the army is not Elite paras and most of the army is 1st and 2nd line and I think the German army has an easy advantage.

Continuing comparisons I would also take the German tactical support air force but the US strategic airforce. Probably the US Navy over all comers as well.....

Despite the fact US and British line units consistently defeated not only German line units, but German elite units, and despite the fact that the German equipment was technologically superior.

Sometimes when someone's 'dug in' there will never be any chance of rooting them out. And this is probably one of those occasions.

I'll say to you what I said elsewhere....you realise we did actually beat the **** out of the German forces throughout the war?? They weren't actually anywhere near as good as you suggest.

They couldn't finish us off at the start of the war when we were on our backsides.....they were **** scared of invading us so didn't. Their airforce got their backsides kicked over Kent. Their navy got spanked into a pretty bloody mess early in the war. They got pasted in the desert.

Again...they were absolutely fantastic when beating the Danish, Dutch, Belgian, French. When they met determined and organised resistance, they had a tremendous habit of actually losing battles left, right and centre.

It's a mystery to me why people laud them.

 

[badpiper]

Why stop at lauding the German military?

Do you have a favorite serial killer?

Ted Bundy was the most professional serial killer. I know, I know, 'killing is wrong', but a lot of people do it.

You just have to admire his numbers. Right? His 'professionalism'? He wasn't a sloppy animal like that amateur Jeffrey Dahmer. He was a well-dressed, good-looking, incredibly efficient, raping and killing machine.

Kind of like a mini German Army.



/sarcasm

 

[Vinnie]

The German army was a bit like Tiger Woods. Comes on the scene and is a cut above everyone else. Then ask others catch up or improve their game. 1940 they probably were the best in the world. 1944, not so much despite the equipment and experience. Ten years ago of you had to pick the best golfer who would you go for? Now, would he name the to ten? Maybe on reputation but not on any other category.
We get distracted by the early war successes and tend to forget how much the Allied forces improved.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Why stop at lauding the German military?

Do you have a favorite serial killer?

Ted Bundy was the most professional serial killer. I know, I know, 'killing is wrong', but a lot of people do it.

You just have to admire his numbers. Right? His 'professionalism'? He wasn't a sloppy animal like that amateur Jeffrey Dahmer. He was a well-dressed, good-looking, incredibly efficient, raping and killing machine.

Kind of like a mini German Army.



/sarcasm

you clearly did not read the OP, and have gone off on a major tangent, I suggest my friend you do just that, if that is beyond your skill set and professionalism 'and no, I do not admire you' then at least understand what the OP was after, I posted what I admire about the German army from ww2, I also posted that war crimes etc were not part of that, so at least have the ability to get your rounds somewhere near the target before you take the blunderbus off of safe and un-load eh.
Now run along as your line of 'Oh someone likes the Germans, How un-PC we must burn him at the stake' begins to bore my raggedy arse.

Oh, and just so we are 100% clear Go re-read what the OP wanted, again for the umptinth Time I can not and do not agree with the Holocust, Rape, Pillage or any other bad thing you try to pin on them, nor thier political views, but as a Soldier I can and do and bloody well will admire thier fighting ability, same as I can admire the Para's at Arnhiem, or the 101st during Normandy, or the 'Big Red one' on Omaha Beach, or the Glousters at the injim River, Leonidas and the Spartans at Thermopyli and a host of other warriors throughout the ages. The Romans for example, bloody professional yes? and yet when a battle was one putting your enemy to the sword or selling them into slavery was standard, see where I am going with this one mate, As to what serial killer I admire, mmmmh, tough one, so many to like I suppose, tell you what, you tell me yours and I will tell you mine, I have always gone with Stalin, but then he was on the winning side so no one likes to mention his more, shall we say 'bad boy' side.

Till later then (As I am sure this is gonna get fun:devious

 

[Martin Mayers]

The German army was a bit like Tiger Woods. Comes on the scene and is a cut above everyone else. Then ask others catch up or improve their game. 1940 they probably were the best in the world. 1944, not so much despite the equipment and experience. Ten years ago of you had to pick the best golfer who would you go for? Now, would he name the to ten? Maybe on reputation but not on any other category.
We get distracted by the early war successes and tend to forget how much the Allied forces improved.

Correct.

The mystique of the German soldier in WW2 is shrouded in myth, over-exaggeration, and self-delusion. No doubt exacerbated by endless self-absorbed biographies by German leaders involved in the war desperate to deflect from their failures and crimes.

And the biggest mystery in my entire life as regards WW2 is that people often seem so desperate to lap up this image which German veterans and some historians have tried to feed us almost endlessly on drip since the end of the war.

I find it bizarre.

 

[Martin Mayers]

you clearly did not read the OP, and have gone off on a major tangent, I suggest my friend you do just that, if that is beyond your skill set and professionalism 'and no, I do not admire you' then at least understand what the OP was after, I posted what I admire about the German army from ww2, I also posted that war crimes etc were not part of that, so at least have the ability to get your rounds somewhere near the target before you take the blunderbus off of safe and un-load eh.
Now run along as your line of 'Oh someone likes the Germans, How un-PC we must burn him at the stake' begins to bore my raggedy arse.

Oh, and just so we are 100% clear Go re-read what the OP wanted, again for the umptinth Time I can not and do not agree with the Holocust, Rape, Pillage or any other bad thing you try to pin on them, nor thier political views, but as a Soldier I can and do and bloody well will admire thier fighting ability, same as I can admire the Para's at Arnhiem, or the 101st during Normandy, or the 'Big Red one' on Omaha Beach, or the Glousters at the injim River, Leonidas and the Spartans at Thermopyli and a host of other warriors throughout the ages. The Romans for example, bloody professional yes? and yet when a battle was one putting your enemy to the sword or selling them into slavery was standard, see where I am going with this one mate, As to what serial killer I admire, mmmmh, tough one, so many to like I suppose, tell you what, you tell me yours and I will tell you mine, I have always gone with Stalin, but then he was on the winning side so no one likes to mention his more, shall we say 'bad boy' side.

Till later then (As I am sure this is gonna get fun:devious

I get it. I admired Eddie the Eagle for putting a pair of skis on and jumping off a 80 slope....he was still absolutely **** at ski jumping though regardless

 

[Proff3RTR]

I get it. I admired Eddie the Eagle for putting a pair of skis on and jumping off a 80 slope....he was still absolutely **** at ski jumping though regardless

Martin,

would love to see all those who claim they were **** face them in a battle, I am what is classed as a seasoned soldier, and know my way around things but even now I would be apprehensive if facing them. and sarcasism does not suit you my friend. You keep claiming they were ****, Strategically and to an extent on the operational level they were, but as I keep saying Tactically they were in general very good. This is an argument that has no clear eneding, you and those who are from the 'Yes but we won, so they must be ****' Camp will never change those from the 'They were good fighters' Camp. Units like the US airborne, our Paras and Commando, Gurkhas and such were very good, but as has been pointed out they were Elite, and as such there was not that many of them, so they influenced the battlefield but could not win the war on thier own (the Russians did that) same with the Tiger battalions, certain SS units, the GrossDeutschland, many Whermacht Panzer Divs and a fair few infantry divs, but they still did not stop the end as we know it, but to right off the Germans as **** just because they are Germans and were th bad guys is to my mind a load of Bolloxs mate and something I did not expect from you.

 

[Martin Mayers]

Martin,

would love to see all those who claim they were **** face them in a battle, I am what is classed as a seasoned soldier, and know my way around things but even now I would be apprehensive if facing them. and sarcasism does not suit you my friend. You keep claiming they were ****, Strategically and to an extent on the operational level they were, but as I keep saying Tactically they were in general very good. This is an argument that has no clear eneding, you and those who are from the 'Yes but we won, so they must be ****' Camp will never change those from the 'They were good fighters' Camp. Units like the US airborne, our Paras and Commando, Gurkhas and such were very good, but as has been pointed out they were Elite, and as such there was not that many of them, so they influenced the battlefield but could not win the war on thier own (the Russians did that) same with the Tiger battalions, certain SS units, the GrossDeutschland, many Whermacht Panzer Divs and a fair few infantry divs, but they still did not stop the end as we know it, but to right off the Germans as **** just because they are Germans and were th bad guys is to my mind a load of Bolloxs mate and something I did not expect from you.

"Would love to see all those who claim they were sh*t face them in a battle"....WTF mate? I'd like to fly on a cloud like Monkey, and fire lightening bolts at people for sh1ts and kicks.

For the record though my Grandad John fought with the 8th Army through the war. When I was a kid raving about Rommel, Grandad John broke cover once and said "he wasn't good enough to beat Monty". He revered Monty. And he was right. Rommel was good...maybe even great. And his troops were really good. And they got B E A T. By the British and Commonwealth. Fact.

I didn't say they were sh1t. Read back...not once have I said they were sh1t. So simmer down Perry I said people over-rate them. You seem to be getting very offended just because I don't agree with you on their fighting abilities?

Again, it's a fact, that the German Army, conscripts, first line, elite, air force, navy, got their arses handed to them throughout World War Two wherever they fought from pretty much 1941/2 onwards. They may have been brave. They may have been extremely good. But they got beat. Left, right, centre, by the Russian Army as they improved in the East, by the British Commonwealth, US, and allied forces in the West pretty much wherever we fought. By Monty in the desert. By the Western Allies in Italy. By the RAF over Britain. By the Royal Navy and USN in the North Atlantic.

Jeez...I mean if you guys want to worship them and build shrines it's your party. But really you're pretty naive if you think you're not going to be challenged on it on a WW2 themed discussion forum.

And by the way...the Russians didn't win WW2 on their own. There's another myth that people like to perpetuate for some bizarre reason. Please stop trying to re-write history to try defend your side of a stupid online discussion.

 

[Proff3RTR]

"Would love to see all those who claim they were sh*t face them in a battle"....WTF mate? I'd like to fly on a cloud like Monkey, and fire lightening bolts at people for sh1ts and kicks.

For the record though my Grandad John fought with the 8th Army through the war. When I was a kid raving about Rommel, Grandad John broke cover once and said "he wasn't good enough to beat Monty". He revered Monty. And he was right. Rommel was good...maybe even great. And his troops were really good. And they got B E A T. By the British and Commonwealth. Fact.

I didn't say they were sh1t. Read back...not once have I said they were sh1t. So simmer down Perry I said people over-rate them. You seem to be getting very offended just because I don't agree with you on their fighting abilities?

Again, it's a fact, that the German Army, conscripts, first line, elite, air force, navy, got their arses handed to them throughout World War Two wherever they fought from pretty much 1941/2 onwards. They may have been brave. They may have been extremely good. But they got beat. Left, right, centre, by the Russian Army as they improved in the East, by the British Commonwealth, US, and allied forces in the West pretty much wherever we fought. By Monty in the desert. By the Western Allies in Italy. By the RAF over Britain. By the Royal Navy and USN in the North Atlantic.

Jeez...I mean if you guys want to worship them and build shrines it's your party. But really you're pretty naive if you think you're not going to be challenged on it on a WW2 themed discussion forum.

And by the way...the Russians didn't win WW2 on their own. There's another myth that people like to perpetuate for some bizarre reason. Please stop trying to re-write history to try defend your side of a stupid online discussion.

as you wish Martin.
But I will say this, I have spoken to several ww2 vetrans in my time, Maj Bill Close (OC A sqn 3 RTR Normandy) Lt R Lemon (Recce Tp 3 RTR Normandy) and Col Hans Von Luck himself to name a few, while on a battlefield tour to Nomandy in 1991, Bill fought through the whole war, first day of Goodwood he had 4 shermans shot from under him, and he had every reason to hate the Germans, but he said that most of his men although they did not like the Germans for what they had done (torn them away from thier families etc) most of the men had a grudging respect for them and (and these are his words now) Professional ability and soldiering skills! so I do not know mate, but you will never change how I view stuff, nor I you, and nor do I wish to. Hans chatted to me at Pegsus bridge about how in 41 his lead sub-unit could see the outskirts of Moscow, all 3 had many stories, and ALL 3 had the utmost respect for each other and thier soldiering qualities.
Bill is gone now and all the rest I would imagine, I was an usher at Bills funeral at sandhurst academy and I had a chat with a certain Noel bell (OC B coy KRRC Normandy) who supported 3 RTR, and he himself said pretty much the same, the germans punished you every time you made a mistake, and were in his view again very, very good. The fact they lost is mute, even the hardest man if jumped by enough teenage kids will go down, simple numbers really, but you keep on with your thing and I will do the same.

But for the record, I agree with your Grandad, Rommel was overrated, very overrated.

 

[MatrimSaric]

Despite the fact US and British line units consistently defeated not only German line units, but German elite units, and despite the fact that the German equipment was technologically superior.

Sometimes when someone's 'dug in' there will never be any chance of rooting them out. And this is probably one of those occasions.

I'll say to you what I said elsewhere....you realise we did actually beat the **** out of the German forces throughout the war?? They weren't actually anywhere near as good as you suggest.

They couldn't finish us off at the start of the war when we were on our backsides.....they were **** scared of invading us so didn't. Their airforce got their backsides kicked over Kent. Their navy got spanked into a pretty bloody mess early in the war. They got pasted in the desert.

Again...they were absolutely fantastic when beating the Danish, Dutch, Belgian, French. When they met determined and organised resistance, they had a tremendous habit of actually losing battles left, right and centre.

It's a mystery to me why people laud them.

Its all a matter of perspective. I see a smaller German army beating easily the British and French (French at 5 million German at 2.5 approx.?) where the same British and French seem unable to utilise the same 'defensive bonus' given as the reason for german performance later in the war. At the same time the British and French economies were not trashed. Later in the war I see a smaller German 2nd line army (because the 1st line was in Russia or had been killed, mainly in Russia) doing a fine job against much stronger US/Commonwealth troops when their economy had been trashed and their armoured units were getting the crap kicked out of them when they moved in the daytime. Those self same Germans now seem to be granted that defensive bonus their opponents did not use early in the war. I see that if the Allies had not had air superiority then I think the D-day campaign would have been lost or not occurred. I see a smaller German force in the desert running rings around the Brits until a massively superior force managed to beat them at Alamein. Beat them they did but with much better supplies and equipment/fuel levels/air support.

I see an army utterly focused at fighting versus a group of democracies who could not be utterly focused on fighting as some democracies still bore the scars of the losses of the 1st world war plus their mode of government was not able to focus on fighting in quite the same fashion as the communists/Fascists.

I see the fact that if Russia had not been led by a communist system that Russia would have lost and we would not have won. If the allied army was that good then we could have defeated Germany without Russia's help. I can also see that that argument is poor. If the US, Britain or Russia had not been involved in that war then we would either have lost or Europe would have ended communist.

I am quite happy to accept your opinions differ though. I think you are wrong but as I say perspective.

 

[alanlynott]

I recently read a book on the campaign to retake france in '44 and it was frankly astonishing how well the german army fought bearing in mind the allied air and materiel superiority, the german lack of basics like boots, ammo and food, never mind morale or the quality of the troops left at that stage of the war. But they still gave us an exceptionally hard fight. So my personal fascination growing up was a mix of admiring their fighting ability, some of the cool toys, the uniforms (sad but true) and the theatres (large scale urban battles like Stalingrad, Berlin etc).

But my fascination has evolved as I have learnt more and aged (I say aged rather than grown wiser) and I have a more nuanced fascination with all aspects of the war and most of the armies involved. I still to this day find it incredible that such a civilised and advanced nation like Germany was taken over and subverted into one of the most evil empires to ever exist - that blows my tiny mind, and I see it as a warning that none of us are as far away from our baser animal instincts as we like to think.

 

[MatrimSaric]

Slightly off tangent I have been fascinated by the labour party (in the UKs) apparent flirtation with anti-Semitism. We have an ex-mayor saying that Hitler used to be a Zionist! - I expect that might refer to Hitlers early (prior to the final solution) attempt to off load the Jewish population to a newly setup Jewish state. This is more a 'fix without pissing off the world' than a 'I like the idea of a Zionist state'. He also told a Jewish reporter he was just like a concentration camp guard, somehow I doubt he got the comparison correct.

But we have also had labour politicians claiming the entire jewish population of Israel should be forceably shifted to the US.

I wonder if the left have ever really faced up to its own anti-Semitism and the labour party certainly seems more arab-palestinian friendly.

One paper put it well when it stated that some politicians don't appear to see the difference between Israel being the only state in the world that is expecting to continually argue about its right to exist as something they do not make any other state face.

 

[badpiper]

I did read the OP's question, and my answer is simple: They have no right to be admired for anything.

All of that 'professionalism' and those 'soldiering skills' were used to kill thousands of innocents and in some cases to get in close enough so they could rape the wives of the dead soldiers.

I know you 'condemn' the war crimes, but that just is way too much cognitive dissonance for me. Respect them on Monday when they are just soldiering but on Tuesday when they are forcing their victims to dig thier own graves, well then I guess you don't respect them.

To me, it is very much like praising Ted Bundy's charm, and skill at wooing his victims, but in the next breath to condemn his outrageous acts of violence.

And plenty of people talk about Stalin's "Bad boy" side.

Read up a bit. You might be shocked.

 

[Proff3RTR]

I did read the OP's question, and my answer is simple: They have no right to be admired for anything.

All of that 'professionalism' and those 'soldiering skills' were used to kill thousands of innocents and in some cases to get in close enough so they could rape the wives of the dead soldiers.

I know you 'condemn' the war crimes, but that just is way too much cognitive dissonance for me. Respect them on Monday when they are just soldiering but on Tuesday when they are forcing their victims to dig thier own graves, well then I guess you don't respect them.

To me, it is very much like praising Ted Bundy's charm, and skill at wooing his victims, but in the next breath to condemn his outrageous acts of violence.

And plenty of people talk about Stalin's "Bad boy" side.

Read up a bit. You might be shocked.

what ever mate, when you can actually come up with a proper, structure to your stance, give me a shout, but I am afraid you clearly do not know your subject, and it shows.

 

[badpiper]

To be clear, I disagree with your assessment of the German Army's abilities, but I can respect your opinion as a soldier.

If they were as good as you say, it seems a shame that thier skills were wasted on such a misguided enterprise.

There is a significant part of the German army of WW2 that I am simply sickened by, and a significant part that I can only feel sorry for. I pity those otherwise good men who blindly followed orders out of a sense of 'professionalism.'

I'm afraid I simply do not find much to admire about them, and am somewhat baffled by people who do.

I do understand people who admire the technological aspect. Any government of the time would have been happy to craft the ME-262, or practically any of thier tanks.

Anyway, agree to disagree I guess.

Cheers.

 

[Proff3RTR]

To be clear, I disagree with your assessment of the German Army's abilities, but I can respect your opinion as a soldier.

If they were as good as you say, it seems a shame that thier skills were wasted on such a misguided enterprise.

There is a significant part of the German army of WW2 that I am simply sickened by, and a significant part that I can only feel sorry for. I pity those otherwise good men who blindly followed orders out of a sense of 'professionalism.'

I'm afraid I simply do not find much to admire about them, and am somewhat baffled by people who do.

I do understand people who admire the technological aspect. Any government of the time would have been happy to craft the ME-262, or practically any of thier tanks.

Anyway, agree to disagree I guess.

Cheers.

Happy with the agree to disagree, but if I may, let me explain if I can the 'Why'

I agree there were Portions of the German army (Not just the Waffen SS) who carried out warcrimes angainst military persons & civilian as a matter of course (non of this can be denied, as documents abound with numbers of Murdered etc)
There were also units that carried out reprisal killings such as at Ourdour sur glane (although that was so way off the scale it goes beyond normal reprisals, which you may be surprised are sanctioned if needed and cleared through the Chain of Command, but the circumstances are so tight I doubt if any unit would allow it).
and clearly we have the Holocaust and all that that entailed.
all the above I can not and do not accept, you do not murder civilians on the battlefield or off, unless they take up arms against you then fine, drop them. You do not shoot enemy POW, you are expected to protect them as much as you can within your powers, cloth and feed them, and house them properly as soon as possible.

All the above I still look at and can not for the life of me work out how a people as cultured as the Germans were decended to so low a level.

now onto the 'Admire' side of things.
Yes, as a professional soldier who has seen the bad side of conflicts and combat I can understand fully how they operated, for them war was not a 'game' but was deadly serious, no, they were not super humans as some claim (they died in droves in Russia so that is that theory out the window).
Strategically they were complete idiots, Operationally not much better.
But and this is where I came into the thread it is at the tactical level we see genius and ability they like of which no one had seen before, yes US airborne were very good, our Para's and commando's were as well and a few other units, but what always impressed me and many more when we did command courses and were told about these men was that it was an army wide ability, yes conscript units were/are crap, that is a given, some Waffen SS units were diabolical and were no better than conscripts, but I would say the what people call the premier divisions (LAH,DR & TK) were once they learnt thier trade craft deadly opponants and killed far more enemy than they lost themselves as units.
The good old 'But we won' argument is as i have already said to my mind Mute, for this reason, you can put a well built, agressive man in a ring, chuck mediocre men at him one at a time and he will beat them, easily, Now, attack the same big healthy strong and adept man with 10 or 12 blokes at the same time, I do not care how good you are, you are going down. That is how I view the German army of ww2, very good at tactical fighting as a general rule, some bad units, but a vast majority were good at war fighting, but they were simply badly lead at the higher level and overrun by numbers.

De Gaulle summed it up in either late 43 or early 44 when he was travelling to some big meeting, his train passed through Stalingrad, they stopped to do a bit of sight seeing (as you do) and a few Paparazzi were tagging along, DG said something along the lines of 'What a people', to which one of the eager Paps said, 'ah the Russians', DG looked at the man and said, 'No' (well non actually, him being French and all) 'The Germans, to have come so far!'
now DG was not known for giving out priase, especially to Les Boche!

I do not wish to change anyones point of view, but for people to say they were just 'Crap' and 'Oh but they lost the war and got the **** kicked out of them all the time' is I feel just plain wrong and un-historical, as an army, we may never see the like again.
They had a strict discipline code, that was perverted by the war, and also the experiances the army went through, Russia left a mark on any unit that served out there, and the longer units served out 'Ost' the more desensitized the men became, so an indifferance to death and suffering was normal. I for one do not think any other army than the German army of ww2 could of fought as hard as they did in Russia or suffer such punishment as they did and still be able to keep fighting except the Russians. All the battles that took place in the western front, were in comparrison small, deadly non the less, but compared to the Russian front, not overly big, and the front itself was far more civilised than the Russian front.

in a nut shell. I can admire thier Tactical ability for what it was, simple and brutal and ahead of its time in some ways. That is what the OP asked, 'Why do people Identify so much with the German army of ww2' I never did touch on anything else other than that until folk started to rant about the fact they were crap, no good, anyone could and did beat them oh and they were very naughty and murdered lots of people and they were all scum. That is when I got dragged into it deeper than was needed, hopefully that will go a way to explain, why I admire them at a tactical level, and nothing else.

Cheers

Perry

 

[Martin Mayers]

Happy with the agree to disagree, but if I may, let me explain if I can the 'Why'

I agree there were Portions of the German army (Not just the Waffen SS) who carried out warcrimes angainst military persons & civilian as a matter of course (non of this can be denied, as documents abound with numbers of Murdered etc)
There were also units that carried out reprisal killings such as at Ourdour sur glane (although that was so way off the scale it goes beyond normal reprisals, which you may be surprised are sanctioned if needed and cleared through the Chain of Command, but the circumstances are so tight I doubt if any unit would allow it).
and clearly we have the Holocaust and all that that entailed.
all the above I can not and do not accept, you do not murder civilians on the battlefield or off, unless they take up arms against you then fine, drop them. You do not shoot enemy POW, you are expected to protect them as much as you can within your powers, cloth and feed them, and house them properly as soon as possible.

All the above I still look at and can not for the life of me work out how a people as cultured as the Germans were decended to so low a level.

now onto the 'Admire' side of things.
Yes, as a professional soldier who has seen the bad side of conflicts and combat I can understand fully how they operated, for them war was not a 'game' but was deadly serious, no, they were not super humans as some claim (they died in droves in Russia so that is that theory out the window).
Strategically they were complete idiots, Operationally not much better.
But and this is where I came into the thread it is at the tactical level we see genius and ability they like of which no one had seen before, yes US airborne were very good, our Para's and commando's were as well and a few other units, but what always impressed me and many more when we did command courses and were told about these men was that it was an army wide ability, yes conscript units were/are crap, that is a given, some Waffen SS units were diabolical and were no better than conscripts, but I would say the what people call the premier divisions (LAH,DR & TK) were once they learnt thier trade craft deadly opponants and killed far more enemy than they lost themselves as units.
The good old 'But we won' argument is as i have already said to my mind Mute, for this reason, you can put a well built, agressive man in a ring, chuck mediocre men at him one at a time and he will beat them, easily, Now, attack the same big healthy strong and adept man with 10 or 12 blokes at the same time, I do not care how good you are, you are going down. That is how I view the German army of ww2, very good at tactical fighting as a general rule, some bad units, but a vast majority were good at war fighting, but they were simply badly lead at the higher level and overrun by numbers.

De Gaulle summed it up in either late 43 or early 44 when he was travelling to some big meeting, his train passed through Stalingrad, they stopped to do a bit of sight seeing (as you do) and a few Paparazzi were tagging along, DG said something along the lines of 'What a people', to which one of the eager Paps said, 'ah the Russians', DG looked at the man and said, 'No' (well non actually, him being French and all) 'The Germans, to have come so far!'
now DG was not known for giving out priase, especially to Les Boche!

I do not wish to change anyones point of view, but for people to say they were just 'Crap' and 'Oh but they lost the war and got the **** kicked out of them all the time' is I feel just plain wrong and un-historical, as an army, we may never see the like again.
They had a strict discipline code, that was perverted by the war, and also the experiances the army went through, Russia left a mark on any unit that served out there, and the longer units served out 'Ost' the more desensitized the men became, so an indifferance to death and suffering was normal. I for one do not think any other army than the German army of ww2 could of fought as hard as they did in Russia or suffer such punishment as they did and still be able to keep fighting except the Russians. All the battles that took place in the western front, were in comparrison small, deadly non the less, but compared to the Russian front, not overly big, and the front itself was far more civilised than the Russian front.

in a nut shell. I can admire thier Tactical ability for what it was, simple and brutal and ahead of its time in some ways. That is what the OP asked, 'Why do people Identify so much with the German army of ww2' I never did touch on anything else other than that until folk started to rant about the fact they were crap, no good, anyone could and did beat them oh and they were very naughty and murdered lots of people and they were all scum. That is when I got dragged into it deeper than was needed, hopefully that will go a way to explain, why I admire them at a tactical level, and nothing else.

Cheers

Perry

Myth and over-hype...propagated by a generation of delusional, self-indulgent, Nazis who mostly should have gone to the gallows all in my humble opinion.

The German army was sometimes good. Sometimes very good. Sometimes less so (no-one said they were crap....and you stating it for the umpteenth time won't make it so).

Personally I find far more to admire in the way we dealt with them both during the war and after the war. Outfought them. Defeated them honourably. And treated them honourably post war.

I also find much more to admire in the likes of those Germans who worked subterfuge from early and through the war to try to kill or overthrow Hitler. People such as Sophie Scholl were braver people than any member of the German military in World War Two in my eyes and far more worthy of my admiration. Probably just the way I'm wired. I've never liked the bullies, no matter how 'hard' they were.

You can have the last word if you want. Or everyone can just agree to differ and agree on the right for people to challenge and disagree with opinions.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Martin,

The white rose and people/Groups that opposed Nazi germany should always be admired, i never said I did not admire them, (that was not what the OP asked, nor was the question asked if you admired Nazi germany for what it did to the world, you and a few others turned this thread into this)

also those who lived thier last moments in this room in agony, they should also be admired and never forgotten
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To my mind, anyone who tried to stop Nazi germany in any form deserves admiration, but again I reiterate that is not what the OP asked, he asked very clearly 'Why do people Identify so much with the German army of ww2'
To this i gave my answer that Tactically (and this is getting boring now, so please do try to keep up and listen) Tactically, Not operationally and certainly not Strategically (as they were biffs at those levels) they were very very good as a whole, or am I missing something here? and history is just made up, and no matter what evidence is layed before people it will just be brushed to one side as folk will just have to cry 'Ah but they lost, and clearly were no good at fighting!), Come on Martin, if you can not see the flaw in that old argument then there is no point in going on with this, France 40 should never of Happened, the french army was thought of as the most advanced and largest (apart from the Russian army) at that time period, They alone out numbered the German armoured forces, the Germans were outnumbered and managed to do what militarily should not of been possible.


As I have said Martin, you will not change, and I certainly will not, if you can not see what Historically is obvious, then so be it, the fact they were beaten is mute, so be it, and there it is, not the last word, as I am sure you will come back and try and twist words again and also i am sure many more will come on and be outraged at the fact that anyone could admire such soldiers.