StME 5-3-7 Sturm troops

[21Z5M]

Thanks, folks. Now I think of 43 as the middle of the war. I suppose that these units were far more common in 1944 and 1945. I assume that after this unit ELRs (if that is a verb?), the resultant 436 unit can no longer use the FT in its possession? It would be interesting if the result 436 unit was marked differently than a 436 VG conscript and still maintained its Elite Status for FTs. Tim

VG units were not conscripts. What they were was a cadre of worn out combat soldiers with under trained Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe personnel. Volkssturm were the locally raised German home guard, generally done in battalion strength. They would be the 4-3-6.

 

[skarper]

Sadly, the ASL infantry numbers were never revised in the way the armour ratings were. Basically, they are arbitrary and based on prejudice. A few seem to work out - Soviet 6-2-8s and 5-2-7s....

Pretty much everything else is wrong.

Is it too late now?? Probably.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Any ideas of what you think they should be ?

 

[skarper]

I do - but not sure people on here really care....
I'm happy to share my ideas - I have my own ASL style game with FP, Range etc more consistent with what we now know from KsTN etc..
If I don't get any no votes I will lay out what I have been using and the whys and wherefores tomorrow....

 

[sswann]

I cannot do anything about past values
BUT
I would like to see what you have in mind.

 

[skarper]

OK - I will post a summary tomorrow...

 

[Sparafucil3]

VG units were not conscripts. What they were was a cadre of worn out combat soldiers with under trained Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe personnel. Volkssturm were the locally raised German home guard, generally done in battalion strength. They would be the 4-3-6.

Those 1945 VolkSturm have Spraying Fire making them better trained than a 1945 American 6-6-7 with 2XBAR. -- jim

 

[21Z5M]

Those 1945 VolkSturm have Spraying Fire making them better trained than a 1945 American 6-6-7 with 2XBAR. -- jim

Sorry I’m not following what you mean.

Volksgrenadiers were retrained Air Force and Navy individuals. Shake and baked training.

Volksturm were locally raised battalions of old men and young kids

 

[sswann]

Those 1945 VolkSturm have Spraying Fire making them better trained than a 1945 American 6-6-7 with 2XBAR. -- jim

Sorry, I do not agree.
They were not better trained completely.
What they had was a greater number of bullets going down-range in a given amount of time than the 667.
The shorter effective range is the value that indicates the level of training.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Sorry, I do not agree.
They were not better trained completely.
What they had was a greater number of bullets going down-range in a given amount of time than the 667.
The shorter effective range is the value that indicates the level of training.

So cripples, old, infirm, convalescent, "4F" troops thrown together with little to no training and what ever weapons they could scrounge put more bullets down range (over a shorter) distance than a fully trained and fully equipped American 6-6-7 with 2XBAR? I just don't buy it. Don't get me wrong, I think IF a Conscript German squad has the ability to spray fire then just about EVERY unit in the game should have the ability. I think it preposterous that a German Conscript unit has this capability. But that's just my opinion. It is a game and all, but sometime you have to scratch your head. -- jim

 

[21Z5M]

So cripples, old, infirm, convalescent, "4F" troops thrown together with little to no training and what ever weapons they could scrounge put more bullets down range (over a shorter) distance than a fully trained and fully equipped American 6-6-7 with 2XBAR? I just don't buy it. Don't get me wrong, I think IF a Conscript German squad has the ability to spray fire then just about EVERY unit in the game should have the ability. I think it preposterous that a German Conscript unit has this capability. But that's just my opinion. It is a game and all, but sometime you have to scratch your head. -- jim

There are two different unit types. Volksgrenadier 5-3-7 (army) and volksturm 4-3-6 (locally raised battalions)

 

[Sparafucil3]

There are two different unit types. Volksgrenadier 5-3-7 (army) and volksturm 4-3-6 (locally raised battalions)

I am aware of the distinction. You mentions the VolkSturm (4-3-6) in an earlier post and I was pointing out how "ridiculous" I think it is that German Conscript squads have Spray Fire capability. -- jim

 

[FrankH.]

I am aware of the distinction. You mentions the VolkSturm (4-3-6) in an earlier post and I was pointing out how "ridiculous" I think it is that German Conscript squads have Spray Fire capability. -- jim

I agree with your argument that a 1945 German conscipt squad probably should not have Spray Fire capability in ASL game terms. I think the issue is that there are no German units to represent reservists except for the 4-3-6, or when the 4-3-6 represents reservists, it must match reservists for the entire timeframe of the war. German reservists during most of the war probably had the training from their past service to fire at more than one (i.e., 2) hexes, as "Spraying FIre". By 1945 the composition of volksturm units would be very young, hardly trained soldiers. Probably a SSR could indicate no spray fire for 4-3-6s in cases where it might not be warranted, like in all or most of 1945.

To be clear, spraying fire, though it may sound like a lot of bullets, does not necessarily mean a lot of bullets in ASL. It's just that half the squad is self directing its fire (by a squad leader or an assistant squad leader) over a wider area than just a single hex.

 

[skarper]

I just spent about an hour or so trying to draft a quick summary and I can't do it! Rather than dump pages into this thread when many would not be interested I invite any who are to PM me with an email address and request and I'll send a pdf that explains my thinking. I can also link to a blog that has some screenshots of games in progress. I'm happy to answer questions by PM or email...

 

[Turuk]

I just spent about an hour or so trying to draft a quick summary and I can't do it! Rather than dump pages into this thread when many would not be interested I invite any who are to PM me with an email address and request and I'll send a pdf that explains my thinking. I can also link to a blog that has some screenshots of games in progress. I'm happy to answer questions by PM or email...

Since you have enough detail to support playing a game with it, could you drop it into Resources, so others could find it later if they come across this thread?

 

[sswann]

As mentioned above, there are a LOT of factors to be considered when looking at squad values and which squad to use in a design. In my own way I agree with all the opinions submitted above after looking at the situation that I was trying to design for. The original SL values made for a simple game, but as we have created different values, we have also created a more complex game. A scenario designer now, has a bevy of factors in all the different squad types (MMP, BFP, LFT,etc) available for designing. This may be a factors in the popularity of the ASLSK line of games. Harking back for the simpler days.

 

[Michael R]

I thought that spraying fire for German units was a result of the MG34 and MG42 very high rate of fire, which is independent of unit training.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I thought that spraying fire for German units was a result of the MG34 and MG42 very high rate of fire, which is independent of unit training.

If the IFP, I rather would also think of many MG40 SMGs/Sturmgewehrs.

 

[FrankH.]

I thought that spraying fire for German units was a result of the MG34 and MG42 very high rate of fire, which is independent of unit training.

Interesting. Probably. But by 1945 maybe many volksturm squads (4-3-6) had no inherent, functional MG, due to all kinds or shortages.

And, if so, perhaps the German half squads should have Spray Fire capability? Or just half of these HS, since there is only one such MG per full squad? But then special HS counters would be needed if SF is given to certain HS but not others?

 

[von Marwitz]

Don't get me wrong, I think IF a Conscript German squad has the ability to spray fire then just about EVERY unit in the game should have the ability. I think it preposterous that a German Conscript unit has this capability.

Maybe they are just not capable to concentrate their fire on all occasions as the Americans are...

von Marwitz