Mortar fire from rubble

apbills

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"In a hex of the building" vs "of a hex of the building" are equal. You are either in one of the building hexes or you're not. The upper level rubble location is still in a hex of the building, isn't it? Nothing in this rule is location based, merely being present at some level of the building hexes.

You have proven my point. Everything in your logic is based on HEX. HEX makes no difference at all. You are either in the building or you are not. We know for a fact that if you are in a building, you are in a building hex. We also know for a fact that you can be in a building hex without being in a building.

Two sentence or single sentence doesn't make a difference. An English teacher of mine once said I used too many semicolons when periods worked just as well. Sometimes it seems like the rules are the same way. The .14 rule doesn't exist just to tell you that you don't have to enter all locations/hexes of the building. It also tells you how to take control of a building, much like the specifics for a hex are detailed in .13.

Otherwise, if .14 isn't the authority on occupying a building for control purposes, what rule paragraph is, and what is the definition of occupation for building control purposes? Building locations or building hexes, or just plain buildings? Rooftops wouldn't be excluded because .11 was met, so you can ignore the part of .14 that says non-rooftop, right?
No, I just don't ignore the part of .14 that specifically calls out you must fulfill the requirements of .11. That is what is being ignored, nothing else. With the wording of .14, .11 is a part of the rule, and .11 must be fulfilled.

Like I said, we continue to talk past each other. I have not ignored any part of any rule. You admit that you ignore part of A26.14, specifially the part that states you must fulfill A26.11.
 

apbills

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I'll give it one last stab.

In A26.14 you incorrectly read the first statement to mean you can be in any building hex in order to control a building.

A26.14 actually states you can be in any level of a building, and that level can be in any hex of that building.

It does not state that you can be in any level of a building hex.

There is a difference. The marketplace is the prime example. The open ground Location is a level in the building hex, it is not a level of the building, in that hex. There is no ground level building in that hex.

In the mortar case, the upper level of the building has been rubbled.
It is still a level of the building.
It is a level of the building Hex.
It is no longer a building Location.

Since it is a upper level of the building, Guns are prohibited (with exceptions as listed).
 

pward

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No, I just don't ignore the part of .14 that specifically calls out you must fulfill the requirements of .11. That is what is being ignored, nothing else. With the wording of .14, .11 is a part of the rule, and .11 must be fulfilled.

Like I said, we continue to talk past each other. I have not ignored any part of any rule. You admit that you ignore part of A26.14, specifially the part that states you must fulfill A26.11.
I'm not ignoring .11 either, it says occupy a building to control it (and a bunch of other things). That occupation is defined in .14 (.11 even points you to the .14 rules paragraph).

I'll give it one last stab.

In A26.14 you incorrectly read the first statement to mean you can be in any building hex in order to control a building.
No, I don't incorrectly read it, that's what it plainly says. Any of the hexes of the building in question, at any level (non-sub and non-roof). Rearrange it all you want, but you can't pick and choose which requirements apply, or combine them in any way you choose. All three requirements combined as one composite requirement with three parts, not (at any building level (in any hex)) but rather ((at any level) (in any hex) (of a building)).

I don't know where you're getting the idea that you can rearrange the sentence to get the meaning you are using.

A26.14 actually states you can be in any level of a building, and that level can be in any hex of that building.
Er, no it doesn't. It says: "at any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building".

It does not state that you can be in any level of a building hex.
Er, yes it does. It says: "at any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building".

There is a difference. The marketplace is the prime example. The open ground Location is a level in the building hex, it is not a level of the building, in that hex. There is no ground level building in that hex.
Actually the marketplace is defined as a building with an odd feature: "Building hex 12R7 is unique in that it has no building obstacle at ground level". It doesn't say it has no ground level building location, just that it's not an obstacle.

In the mortar case, the upper level of the building has been rubbled.
It is still a level of the building.
It is a level of the building Hex.
It is no longer a building Location.

Since it is a upper level of the building, Guns are prohibited (with exceptions as listed).
If the rubble location were an upper level of the building, it would have to be a building location as well. Rubble is clearly removed from being a building location upon it's creation. You can't have two locations at that level, one building and one non-building. So the rubble location isn't "IN" the building.

The rubble location/level is still in the building hex. (Neither of us has been arguing against it either way.)

It is no longer a building location, which is why it can't also be a building level. You can't have it both ways, a location at some level can't be a building level and not a building location. It can however exist in a building hex above other building levels/locations. (Or below the building, but then it wouldn't qualify for control of the building.)
 

Chas

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Was the whole Mortar firing from upstairs rubble debate ever officially resolved? Cant seem to find anything.

Thanks,
Chas
 

fleetB17

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Not that I have ever found.

You did at least move the thread back to page one again.
Maybe we will see an official answer these few years later.

Steve
 

Robin Reeve

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It seems I have had a recurrent problem with that question, starting a thread twice about it !
I feel old...
 

lt_steiner

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I sent the following series of questions to Perry, via MMP's Q&A facility :

1) May a Mortar fire from a Ground Level Rubble Location ?

2) May a 5/8" Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
2a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
2b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

3) May a 1/2" SW Light Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
3a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
3b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

Wait and see...
I did not find the official answer to these questions. Were there any answer?
 

Binchois

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Here's S&S's questions to MMP which I do not find answered in Klas's compilation of Q&As:

I sent the following series of questions to Perry, via MMP's Q&A facility :

1) May a Mortar fire from a Ground Level Rubble Location ?

2) May a 5/8" Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
2a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
2b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

3) May a 1/2" SW Light Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
3a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
3b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

Wait and see...
I think, however, that all of these are answered by B24.1:

B24.1 Rubble represents shattered remnants of a building and is represented by a ⅝" rubble counter which is brown if the building was wooden, or gray if it was stone. A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building [EXC: for Rubble Clearance purposes; 24.71].​
As far as I can tell, the various restrictions on Guns and/or Mortars (mainly, B24.423 and C2.7) all fall away when the Location in question becomes Rubble and not a building Location.

So I think...

A. Yes to All (for better or for worse)

....definitely not Perry
notMMP
 
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Robin Reeve

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Yours, post #39 (page 2) on this thread. But I could not find the official answer.
January 14, 2009... That is past eleven years ago. ?
I have no trace of Perry's reply.
I found nothing in Klas' Perry Sez collection.
My answers would be :
1 Yes
2a Yes
2b No
3a Yes
3b Yes
The only question is to have a 5/8" mortar at Level 1 when the ground level is not fortified.
 

Eagle4ty

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January 14, 2009... That is past eleven years ago. ?
I have no trace of Perry's reply.
I found nothing in Klas' Perry Sez collection.
My answers would be :
1 Yes
2a Yes
2b No
3a Yes
3b Yes
The only question is to have a 5/8" mortar at Level 1 when the ground level is not fortified.
The only two rules I can come up with to answer the last question would be as Binchois stated, B24.1 which make the rubbled location no longer a building location and would thus allow it if the rubble is at an upper level, and B23.85 that intimates as long as the mortar is able to fire indirect fire from the position (e.g. from a rooftop) it would be permissible though it does not address the fortification (or lack thereof) of a building location(s) beneath it. However, having stated as much, it doesn't seem that C2.7 would allow it if one considers the rubbled upper building location as somehow still being part of that building. (A clarification if nothing else would be great).
 

Binchois

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I agree. Firing from an upper-level "former building Location" is the unsatisfactory case, left unclear by a reading of the RB alone. Even 5/8" mortars on a roof are limited up to 82mm.

I guess C2.7 balks on using the term "building Location"...

C2.7 PROHIBITED HEXES: A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level [EXC: Fortified Buildings and mortars on Rooftops]...​
...which leaves things unclear but kinda points to forbidding this case. The first level might no longer be a Building Location, but it may still be the first level of a building. Official clarification would be nice, though it is an unusual circumstance that a player would ever find the opportunity to wrangle a Gun into such a place.
 

Eagle4ty

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I agree. Firing from an upper-level "former building Location" is the unsatisfactory case, left unclear by a reading of the RB alone. Even 5/8" mortars on a roof are limited up to 82mm.

I guess C2.7 balks on using the term "building Location"...

C2.7 PROHIBITED HEXES: A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level [EXC: Fortified Buildings and mortars on Rooftops]...​
...which leaves things unclear but kinda points to forbidding this case. The first level might no longer be a Building Location, but it may still be the first level of a building. Official clarification would be nice, though it is an unusual circumstance that a player would ever find the opportunity to wrangle a Gun into such a place.
RF & VotG not too uncommon though.
 

von Marwitz

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Cant get to the link I posted years ago. Any way to get to it?
There is a trick to get the old links working.

Ask JR who left here a while ago. He has created some gadget that you can add to your webbrowser. If you copy/paste the non-working link in, it will work.

Edit - found some threads on this:



von Marwitz
 
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