Mortar fire from rubble

Robin Reeve

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I just cannot find a clear answer to that basic question :

1 - may a mortar (SW or small-target 5/8")fire from a rubble Location?

Other related question :

2 - if allowed to fire from a rubble location, and as rubble may not be fortified, does this mean that a 5/8" mortar may not fire from an upper-level rubble Location?
 

Jon

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I just cannot find a clear answer to that basic question :

1 - may a mortar (SW or small-target 5/8")fire from a rubble Location?
Yes. A Rubble Location is not a building Location [B24.1] There is nothing in the B24. rules that prohibit a Mortar firing from Rubble


Other related question :

2 - if allowed to fire from a rubble location, and as rubble may not be fortified, does this mean that a 5/8" mortar may not fire from an upper-level rubble Location?
I would say that although an upper level Rubble Location is not a building Location, that upper level is still part of the building. Hence a SW Mortar could fire from there but not a 5/8" Mortar. B23423 says "No weapon on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building" with the exception for mortars <=82mm on a rooftop. A rubbled upper level is not a rooftop [B23.86]

Cheers
Jon
 

pward

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Yes. A Rubble Location is not a building Location [B24.1] There is nothing in the B24. rules that prohibit a Mortar firing from Rubble

I would say that although an upper level Rubble Location is not a building Location, that upper level is still part of the building. Hence a SW Mortar could fire from there but not a 5/8" Mortar. B23423 says "No weapon on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building" with the exception for mortars <=82mm on a rooftop. A rubbled upper level is not a rooftop [B23.86]

Cheers
Jon
You're contradicting yourself. Assuming you can get the weapon up there DM to a 1/2" counter, you should be able to assemble and fire it. So for mortars smaller than or equal to 82mm, it should be legal.

Rubble location is not a building location. If it's not a building location, it can't be a upper level of a building location either.

Mortars can't fire from buildings because of the roof. What do you think fell down to create the rubble? (Hint, the roof and any floors above that level.) For VotG Gutted Buildings and RB Roofless Factories, there is no roof, and there is explicit allowance to fire mortars from those locations because they remain building locations.
 

Robin Reeve

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For VotG Gutted Buildings and RB Roofless Factories, there is no roof, and there is explicit allowance to fire mortars from those locations because they remain building locations.
Yes, but there remains a doubt about the necessity or not to have the lower levels Foritified to be allowed to do it - I consider not, but I still am not sure...
 

Jon

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You're contradicting yourself. Assuming you can get the weapon up there DM to a 1/2" counter, you should be able to assemble and fire it. So for mortars smaller than or equal to 82mm, it should be legal.

Rubble location is not a building location. If it's not a building location, it can't be a upper level of a building location either.
No, I'm not contradicting my self
Upper Level Rubble Location is NOT an upper level Building Location as per B24.1

However, I see nothing that says an Upper Level Rubble Location is not part of the Building or the Building hex.
B24.1 says (with my emphasis) "A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building"

There is a difference between Building Location and a Building hex. B23.1 defines a Building hex.

Now I qoute B23.423, with my emphasis
"No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building"

It says building, not building Location. The EXC is that Mortars are allowed on rooftops, but if an upper level has rubbled, there is no rooftop in that hex [B23.86]


Mortars can't fire from buildings because of the roof. What do you think fell down to create the rubble? (Hint, the roof and any floors above that level.) For VotG Gutted Buildings and RB Roofless Factories, there is no roof, and there is explicit allowance to fire mortars from those locations because they remain building locations.
VOTG rules only apply to VOTG. RB rules only apply to RB

Now I happen to agree that Mortars should be able to fire from upper level rubble Locations from a reality POV, if you are able to get the Mortar up there (eg in its dm form). Hoever at the moment B23.423 does not seem to permit it. You can take the dm Mortar up there but you can't assemble it to its 5/8" form. The 5/8' counter is the key, which is why I say a SW Mtr can fire from an upper level rubble Location.

Cheers
Jon
 

Cpl Uhl

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In scenarios that call for the players to place rubble counters, one nice trick is to rubble a bldg that has great LOS in order to put your mortar in there.
 

pward

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It says building, not building Location. The EXC is that Mortars are allowed on rooftops, but if an upper level has rubbled, there is no rooftop in that hex [B23.86]
And it doesn't say "building hex", which is the crux of the argument. The generic term "building" covers a lot of ground, but still doesn't include rubble locations that were buildings at one point during play. (Or rubbled pre-game or last scenario of a CG or whatever...) With the notable exceptions of sometimes being equivalent to building locations for victory determination. What's the sleeze for some poorly written VC, rubble enough VC locations and the opponent can't win...

If a rubbled building falls all the way to ground level, there wouldn't be a question as to allowing mortar fire from that ground level location. Even if an adjacent portion of the building remained, such as a RB style cellar.

I see no functional difference in the rules for firing from a rubble location, regardless of it's position above existing building locations. (So long as you can get the mortar into position.) If the mortar and crew were there to begin with when the rubble was created, they are eliminated by the falling rubble. So they have to have been able to move or setup there after the rubble was created.
 

2 Bit Bill

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Now I happen to agree that Mortars should be able to fire from upper level rubble Locations from a reality POV, if you are able to get the Mortar up there (eg in its dm form). Hoever at the moment B23.423 does not seem to permit it. You can take the dm Mortar up there but you can't assemble it to its 5/8" form. The 5/8' counter is the key, which is why I say a SW Mtr can fire from an upper level rubble Location.

Cheers
Jon
I'm up in the air on this one but first leaned toward being able to fire the Mortar from Upper Level Rubble.

realistically speaking, pehaps firing a Mortar from a upper level will get the gun down to the next lower level...fast? :laugh:
 

Robin Reeve

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realistically speaking, pehaps firing a Mortar from a upper level will get the gun down to the next lower level...fast? :laugh:
... and the crew would be dismantled, I presume...
 

2 Bit Bill

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I found this;
Mortars can be fired through the roof of a ruined building if the ground-level flooring is solid enough to withstand the recoil. If there is only concrete in the mortar platoon's area, mortars can be fired using sandbags as a buffer under the baseplate and curbs as anchors and braces. (This is recommended only when time is not available to prepare better firing area.) Aiming posts can be placed in dirt-filled cans.
 

Robin Reeve

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So, Bill, after what I understand, firing a mortar from an upper level rubble Location would require bags... big ones, hanging between one's legs.
 

pward

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I'm up in the air on this one but first leaned toward being able to fire the Mortar from Upper Level Rubble.

realistically speaking, pehaps firing a Mortar from a upper level will get the gun down to the next lower level...fast? :laugh:
Entirely possible. But if the floor is holding up the rubble (and managed to stop it's fall) how much damage is the mortar going to do?
 

Sparafucil3

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Entirely possible. But if the floor is holding up the rubble (and managed to stop it's fall) how much damage is the mortar going to do?
It depends. Is the floor already holding 3000lbs and load rated for 4500? If so, you might not want to put it to the test when you add the weight of the crew, the ammo, the gun, and the force of recoil. It may just be the straw that breaks the camels back.. :) -- jim

PS: Put me down in the undecided camp on this one.
 

2 Bit Bill

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Might be something to ask Atwater(if he's around) when the boys use their backstage pass at Aberdeen this month. :smoke:
 

Jon

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With the notable exceptions of sometimes being equivalent to building locations for victory determination. What's the sleeze for some poorly written VC, rubble enough VC locations and the opponent can't win...
This is actually a problem in som e VCs. J63 "Silesian Interlude" and J56 "A Burnt Out Case" spring to mind.

Cheers
Jon
 

pward

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It depends. Is the floor already holding 3000lbs and load rated for 4500? If so, you might not want to put it to the test when you add the weight of the crew, the ammo, the gun, and the force of recoil. It may just be the straw that breaks the camels back.. :) -- jim

PS: Put me down in the undecided camp on this one.
I was going to suggest some sort of "weight limit" test like bridges, but the added effort doesn't seem worth it for such a seldom used thing.

Fire once and check for collapse, if it doesn't break, then you can keep firing all you want with similar sized weapons. Fail and start the falling rubble process.
 

pward

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This is actually a problem in som e VCs. J63 "Silesian Interlude" and J56 "A Burnt Out Case" spring to mind.

Cheers
Jon
Silesian Interlude is on the tourney list for Winter War, I will have to remember that...
 

Jon

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Silesian Interlude is on the tourney list for Winter War, I will have to remember that...
There is a Perry Sez that rectifies the issue and that I would play by.

Scenario J63 (“Silesian Interlude”) The VC say “The Germans win at game end by Controlling al four board 38 buildings and …”. What happens if one side or the other rubbles one or more of the four buildings? Does it (a) give the Russian an automatic win, (b) decrease the number of buildings the German must control, or (c) mean that the German must control the remaining buildings plus any rubbled Locations?
A. (b). [Letter121]

121) Bill Kohler to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 29 November 2001

No official errata has been released for it though.

Cheers
Jon
 

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A building that has been totally rubbled is no longer a building. B24.1. But if only the upper level is rubbled, it is still a building even if that location is not a building location. B24.1.

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building.

C2.7 PROHIBITED HEXES: A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level ...

Is the rubbled location (that is not a building location) nonetheless the upper level of a building in that hex. It is still a building under B24.1 as long as the ground floor is intact. The rubble location exists in a hex that is still a building. Because neither B24.423 nor C2.7 uses the word "location" ... probably should not read that word into it. Therefore, a mortar cannot fire from the upper level rubble of a building hex.
 
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