Mortar fire from rubble

[apbills]

Well, the building (not hex and not location) control rules say: "any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building;"

If a rubble location remained a building location, or otherwise subject to the building rules then all these distinction about rubble and or building would be rendered moot, and you would just classify rubble as another special building type like factories.

So based on the building control rules, a MMC in an upper level rubble Location can gain Control of the building. That seems to imply that an upper level rubble Location is part of the building.

 

[pward]

So based on the building control rules, a MMC in an upper level rubble Location can gain Control of the building. That seems to imply that an upper level rubble Location is part of the building.

Implications are fine to think about, but they aren't rules.

The control rule states "any hex of the building", not any building location (which would exclude the non-building rubble location). So long as the building continues to exist, and the hex you're in is part of it (>= one level remains below the rubble) the upper level rubble locations would count.

It's funny to me that people are arguing against the rubble location not being a building location when we have a few other location "alternate realities" in the game already. Each it's own location independent of the hex terrain to some degree.

Foxholes are a prime example. For some rules they are the same exact location as outside the foxhole (LLMC/TC, rally, etc.), for others it's not the same location (TEM, recovery).

 

[apbills]

Implications are fine to think about, but they aren't rules.

The control rule states "any hex of the building", not any building location (which would exclude the non-building rubble location). So long as the building continues to exist, and the hex you're in is part of it (>= one level remains below the rubble) the upper level rubble locations would count.

It's funny to me that people are arguing against the rubble location not being a building location when we have a few other location "alternate realities" in the game already. Each it's own location independent of the hex terrain to some degree.

Foxholes are a prime example. For some rules they are the same exact location as outside the foxhole (LLMC/TC, rally, etc.), for others it's not the same location (TEM, recovery).

Quite frankly I am lost at what you are trying to say.

I fully agree that an upper level rubble location is part of the building - that is what I have been saying from the beginning.

That is why when the rules state "in a building" with no disclaimer to either Location or Hex, those rules should apply to the upper level rubble since it is part of the building. (It is also in the Building Hex, but is not a Building Location).

Which then gets back to the fact that the C2.7 and B23.423 rules specifically state "building" not "Building Location" or "Building Hex" when they prohibit Guns from being in the upper levels (with exceptions).

 

[pward]

Quite frankly I am lost at what you are trying to say.

I fully agree that an upper level rubble location is part of the building - that is what I have been saying from the beginning.

And I fully disagree, since the rubble location is not a building location, it has ceased to be part of the "building" definition. It is still a non-subterranean location in the building hex, but it isn't part of the building anymore. (It's the shattered remnants of the level it's on and any that were above it, but it isn't part of the building.)

That is why when the rules state "in a building" with no disclaimer to either Location or Hex, those rules should apply to the upper level rubble since it is part of the building. (It is also in the Building Hex, but is not a Building Location).

Which then gets back to the fact that the C2.7 and B23.423 rules specifically state "building" not "Building Location" or "Building Hex" when they prohibit Guns from being in the upper levels (with exceptions).

The B23.423 rule against it says "upper level of a building" for occupation, and "non-rooftop building Location" for firing. Not a building location, so neither of these apply for the rubble.

The C2.7 rule begins with "upper building level" for the general restriction of no guns at all (with EXC: for rooftop mortars and fortified locations). Again rubble is not a building location so it's not an upper building level. Now if it said "upper level of a building hex" you would have something.

Then, C2.7 goes on to allow some sizes of guns in "building/rubble hex". First issue here is that it doesn't speak to levels, only hexes. The hex type we have been discussing is a building hex (it might become a rubble hex if the rubble falls to ground level). Either way the types of mortars we are talking about are permitted to be in a "building/rubble hex" under this part of the C2.7 rule.

C2.7 has no restrictions on fire from those locations/hexes, just about setup there.

There are three terms used in the rules, and they are not freely interchangeable.

Building - A generalization, there will be one or more building locations, in one or more building hexes making up the whole of a single building. Also covers multiple types of buildings such as huts, factories, stone and wooden, row houses, lumberyards, split-levels, and marketplace.

Building Location - One specific location that is part of a building.

Building Hex - Any hex containing a building. Other terrain types and locations can exist in a building hex, such as upper level rubble, sewer, combo with woods, road, etc. The presence or absence of those other terrain types and locations means nothing to the status of the building, or those other terrain types because of the building. (Other than combined effects such as MF/MP cost.)

The marketplace is a great example of a simple instance where multiple terrain types coexist in a building hex. The OG location at ground level doesn't bend anyone's mind, why is it so hard to see that the upper level rubble location is similarly not part of the building rules?

 

[Sparafucil3]

And I fully disagree, since the rubble location is not a building location, it has ceased to be part of the "building" definition. It is still a non-subterranean location in the building hex, but it isn't part of the building anymore. (It's the shattered remnants of the level it's on and any that were above it, but it isn't part of the building.)

If the rubble location means the building no longer exist, how do you get to the Location?

B23.22 TWO STORY HOUSE: ... All building of this type have an inherent stairwell present in each hex to allow movement between levels. ...

B23.23 MULTI-STORY BUILDING: ... Movement between levels inside the building may only be accomplished in a stairwell hex. ...

So sticking to the letter of the rule, you could possible enter the location using the climbing rules (B23.424), but you would need to be Commandos by SSR. Stairwells would be NA since those only allow you to move from one level of the building to another level of the building. -- jim

 

[apbills]

Checking the building control rules:

A26.11 GAINING CONTROL: <snip> During play, a side gains Control of a Location/hex/building by occupying it with an armed Good Order Infantry MMC without the presence of an armed enemy ground unit [EXC: subterranean units] in that same Location/hex/building (see also 26.13-.14 for hex/building Control).

A26.14 BUILDING CONTROL: An armed, Good Order Infantry MMC at any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building; a side need not physically occupy all levels or all hexes of a building to gain Control of it as long as the conditions of 26.11 are fulfilled. The different hexes of a Rowhouse structure (B23.71) are considered one building for building Control purposes.​

I will revise that to interpret the bold section above means any location within the building HEX keeps control of the building, so the Russian unit retains control of the building and it's hex. Another instance where the rules don't match either of our expectations.

The control rule states "any hex of the building", not any building location (which would exclude the non-building rubble location). So long as the building continues to exist, and the hex you're in is part of it (>= one level remains below the rubble) the upper level rubble locations would count.

And I fully disagree, since the rubble location is not a building location, it has ceased to be part of the "building" definition. It is still a non-subterranean location in the building hex, but it isn't part of the building anymore. (It's the shattered remnants of the level it's on and any that were above it, but it isn't part of the building.)

This is how I got lost. In the first quote, you state that a unit in an upper level rubble would control the building that the rubble was in, due to the rubble being part of the building hex.
Given you must fullfill the conditions of 26.11 (red above), how is that correct if the upper level rubble is not part of the building?

A26.11 - During play, a side gains Control of a Location/ hex/ building by occupying it with an armed Good Order Infantry MMC without the presence of an armed enemy ground unit [EXC: subterranean units] in that same Location/ hex/ building (see also 26.13-.14 for hex/ building Control).

26.14 BUILDING CONTROL: An armed, Good Order Infantry MMC at any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building; a side need not physically occupy all levels or all hexes of a building to gain Control of it as long as the conditions of 26.11 are fulfilled.

This is where you are flipping hex and building around. In order interpret A26.11 correctly, you need to use the same choice of three options in both parts of the sentence (as done above).

That means you can not fullfill the A26.11 conditions for building control unless you occupy the building - not occupy a building hex of that building. Given that is the case, the only way the unit in the rubble can control the building is if it is considered occupying the building.

The marketplace is a great example of a simple instance where multiple terrain types coexist in a building hex. The OG location at ground level doesn't bend anyone's mind, why is it so hard to see that the upper level rubble location is similarly not part of the building rules?

The marketplace is a great example of an exception that has an entire set of specific rules to govern it, hence there are no problems with it.

Given your interpretation (you need to be in the building hex, not the building), I would assume you believe that occupying the ground level open ground Location of the marketplace would be enough for you to control the building, since you are in a building hex of that building.

 

[apbills]

Now the orignal question was concerning being able to fire from an upper level rubble Location.

The building control rules have little to do with that, other than an attempt to define what "building" means when it is not used with either "Hex" or "Location" as part of a phrase.

In C2.7 we have:
1) "A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level"
along with
2) "Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only 5/8" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex"
both with the following exceptions:
"[EXC: Rooftop mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (B23.93)]."

In order to allow a 76-82mm MTR to be in an upper level rubble Location, you use #2 to allow it in a building hex, than state that #1 does not apply since it is not an upper building level, rather it is a Rubble Location that is not part of an upper building level, rather it is just sitting on top of a lower level building Location.

This would also mean that other small and non-large AT/INF Guns are allowed to occupy an upper level Rubble hex.

A2.9 does not prevent it - it only limits you to setup in a hex it cound not enter. Nothing about an upper level Location.

So based on all of this, if the rules allow a mortar to be in the upper level rubble we also allow small and non-large AT/ING Guns to be in there as well.

As stated before, it comes down to the question: Is an upper level rubble Location considered an upper building level for the purposes of C2.7?

I believe that the rules should be modified, with the exception for Rooftop Mortars to include roofless building Locations as well as upper level rubble Locations. We see that VotG has gone there for the roofless building Locations (something we only need in VotG at this point since that is the only map/situation that they occur).

The rules were modified a bit between v1 and v2.

v1: B24.1... A building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building

v2: B24.1... A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building.

Maybe this change was meant to allow it, but it doesn't tie into all the other rules well enough IMO.

 

[pward]

If the rubble location means the building no longer exist, how do you get to the Location?

So sticking to the letter of the rule, you could possible enter the location using the climbing rules (B23.424), but you would need to be Commandos by SSR. Stairwells would be NA since those only allow you to move from one level of the building to another level of the building. -- jim

If the rubble falls all the way to ground level, the building no longer exists in that hex, if it's an upper level rubble location, there are building locations below it, so it is a building hex.

See:

B24.4: Infantry movement into rubble costs three MF. Stairwell movement to or from a rubble level also costs three MF, not the normal one MF cost for changing levels via a stairwell. <snip the rest>​

 

[pward]

This is how I got lost. In the first quote, you state that a unit in an upper level rubble would control the building that the rubble was in, due to the rubble being part of the building hex.
Given you must fullfill the conditions of 26.11 (red above), how is that correct if the upper level rubble is not part of the building?

A26.11 - During play, a side gains Control of a Location/ hex/ building by occupying it with an armed Good Order Infantry MMC without the presence of an armed enemy ground unit [EXC: subterranean units] in that same Location/ hex/ building (see also 26.13-.14 for hex/ building Control).

26.14 BUILDING CONTROL: An armed, Good Order Infantry MMC at any non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building can gain Control of the building; a side need not physically occupy all levels or all hexes of a building to gain Control of it as long as the conditions of 26.11 are fulfilled.

This is where you are flipping hex and building around. In order interpret A26.11 correctly, you need to use the same choice of three options in both parts of the sentence (as done above).

That means you can not fullfill the A26.11 conditions for building control unless you occupy the building - not occupy a building hex of that building. Given that is the case, the only way the unit in the rubble can control the building is if it is considered occupying the building.

The marketplace is a great example of an exception that has an entire set of specific rules to govern it, hence there are no problems with it.

Given your interpretation (you need to be in the building hex, not the building), I would assume you believe that occupying the ground level open ground Location of the marketplace would be enough for you to control the building, since you are in a building hex of that building.

I'm assuming that the side in the rubble already owns the building from setup or prior occupation. We were discussing a unit entering the building to take control of it, but it's prevented from doing so by the presence of an armed enemy unit in "non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building". That clause for building control also applies to the "defending" unit in the rubble location. If there were no enemy units in the other hexes of the building then it owns the building. Building control is hex based, not building based. You go from the generic rule for control "occupy whatever it is" to the specifics for a building in A26.14. That's the whole point of "(see also 26.13-.14 for hex/ building Control)".

Yes, unless I missed something in the marketplace or control rules that says otherwise, if you're in the ground level of the marketplace hex, you can gain control of the building since you meet the criteria for A26.14, the specific rules for control of a building.

 

[pward]

Now the orignal question was concerning being able to fire from an upper level rubble Location.

The building control rules have little to do with that, other than an attempt to define what "building" means when it is not used with either "Hex" or "Location" as part of a phrase.

In C2.7 we have:
1) "A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level"
along with
2) "Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only 5/8" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex"
both with the following exceptions:
"[EXC: Rooftop mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (B23.93)]."

In order to allow a 76-82mm MTR to be in an upper level rubble Location, you use #2 to allow it in a building hex, than state that #1 does not apply since it is not an upper building level, rather it is a Rubble Location that is not part of an upper building level, rather it is just sitting on top of a lower level building Location.

This would also mean that other small and non-large AT/INF Guns are allowed to occupy an upper level Rubble hex.

A2.9 does not prevent it - it only limits you to setup in a hex it cound not enter. Nothing about an upper level Location.

So based on all of this, if the rules allow a mortar to be in the upper level rubble we also allow small and non-large AT/ING Guns to be in there as well.

As stated before, it comes down to the question: Is an upper level rubble Location considered an upper building level for the purposes of C2.7?

I believe that the rules should be modified, with the exception for Rooftop Mortars to include roofless building Locations as well as upper level rubble Locations. We see that VotG has gone there for the roofless building Locations (something we only need in VotG at this point since that is the only map/situation that they occur).

The rules were modified a bit between v1 and v2.

v1: B24.1... A building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building

v2: B24.1... A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building.

Maybe this change was meant to allow it, but it doesn't tie into all the other rules well enough IMO.

Interesting catch on A2.9, but I don't know how it changes anything. Arguing that since A2.9 doesn't say locations (with or without rubble or fortifications) that means you can setup that RFNM 150mm ART on level 3. Just on the "hex you can enter during play" means the ground level for heavy things like vehicles and guns. It's not too much of a stretch to see this applying to alternate locations as well. If you can't get there from here, it means no setup.

The only way to setup a non-dm-able gun upstairs is to fortify the lower locations and to fortify the location upstairs. During play you can't push such a gun to the upper level location, so it's only a setup question, which is covered by the rules we are discussing.

A mortar on the other hand can enter the location as a SW, and be reassembled in that upper level location, be it a rooftop location, upper level rubble, or gutted building from VotG. Note that it would be illegal (and a waste of time) to reassemble it in an intermediate level since you can't occupy an upper level building location with a mortar or any other gun. (Other than rooftops, roofless locations and non building locations like rubble.)

 

[pward]

On topic:

Where can you fire a mortar from that might involve buildings:
Rooftops - ok, so there is nothing above the location, mortar fire is ok and weight/recoil of the mortar is not checked to fall through the roof.

Roofless locations - RB and VotG SSRs, the big thing being the lack of a roof, again for VotG there is no mention of recoil or weight issues when firing from upstairs.

Lumberyard - No problem firing mortars or AA at aerial targets, since there is no roof. No question about weight or recoil because you're on the ground.

Rubble hex - used to be a building, no roof, on the ground for weight and recoil issues.

Upper Level Rubble location - again, nothing above you, and since no other upper level location has asked about weight or recoil of mortars, why should this be any different?

 

[apbills]

I'm assuming that the side in the rubble already owns the building from setup or prior occupation. We were discussing a unit entering the building to take control of it, but it's prevented from doing so by the presence of an armed enemy unit in "non-rooftop, non-subterranean level in any hex of a building". That clause for building control also applies to the "defending" unit in the rubble location. If there were no enemy units in the other hexes of the building then it owns the building. Building control is hex based, not building based. You go from the generic rule for control "occupy whatever it is" to the specifics for a building in A26.14. That's the whole point of "(see also 26.13-.14 for hex/ building Control)".

Please give me the rule the red highlighted quote comes from. It's not in my A26.11 nor my A26.14.

I agree that paraphrasing the A26.14 rule you could state that any unit "in a building hex" can gain control over the building, however, you must still meet the requirements of A26.11 - which state you have to occupy the building. If you are not occupying the building, it does not matter if you are in a building hex - you can't control the building.

Again, on preventing control the same thing applies. It is not that you have to be in a building hex to prevent it, rather, you must be occupying the building. That is what A26.11 states. When it states "Location/Hex/Building" it does not mean you can control a building by occupying the building hex. It means
1) you can control a Location by occupying the Location
2) you can control a Hex by occupying the Hex
3) you can control a Building by occupying the Building

Not
x) you can control a building by occupying a building hex.

Yes, unless I missed something in the marketplace or control rules that says otherwise, if you're in the ground level of the marketplace hex, you can gain control of the building since you meet the criteria for A26.14, the specific rules for control of a building.

You missed something in A26.14. You must fullfill the conditions of A26.11 as well - specifically you must occupy the building. Just occupying the building hex is not enough.

 

[apbills]

Interesting catch on A2.9, but I don't know how it changes anything. Arguing that since A2.9 doesn't say locations (with or without rubble or fortifications) that means you can setup that RFNM 150mm ART on level 3. Just on the "hex you can enter during play" means the ground level for heavy things like vehicles and guns. It's not too much of a stretch to see this applying to alternate locations as well. If you can't get there from here, it means no setup.

The only way to setup a non-dm-able gun upstairs is to fortify the lower locations and to fortify the location upstairs. During play you can't push such a gun to the upper level location, so it's only a setup question, which is covered by the rules we are discussing.

A mortar on the other hand can enter the location as a SW, and be reassembled in that upper level location, be it a rooftop location, upper level rubble, or gutted building from VotG. Note that it would be illegal (and a waste of time) to reassemble it in an intermediate level since you can't occupy an upper level building location with a mortar or any other gun. (Other than rooftops, roofless locations and non building locations like rubble.)

I never argued what you are stating. Is a RFNM 155ART a small or non-large AT/INF target?

The only statement I can find in the rules about dismantled Guns being able to move to upper levels is in the B23.85 Rooftop rule. It is specific to rooftops and no other Location in a building.

 

[apbills]

On topic:

Where can you fire a mortar from that might involve buildings:
Rooftops - ok, so there is nothing above the location, mortar fire is ok and weight/recoil of the mortar is not checked to fall through the roof.
B23.85 - In the rules

Roofless locations - RB and VotG SSRs, the big thing being the lack of a roof, again for VotG there is no mention of recoil or weight issues when firing from upstairs.
V7.7 covers it in VotG, O5.45 covers it in RB. In the rules

Lumberyard - No problem firing mortars or AA at aerial targets, since there is no roof. No question about weight or recoil because you're on the ground.
B23.211 - In the rules

Rubble hex - used to be a building, no roof, on the ground for weight and recoil issues.
C2.7 - In the rules

Upper Level Rubble location - again, nothing above you, and since no other upper level location has asked about weight or recoil of mortars, why should this be any different?

It shouldn't be. Unfortunately, there are no rules that allow it (that I can find anyway)

B23.423 and C2.7 specifically disallow it.

An aside - B23.423 actually prevents mortar fire from a non-rooftop building Location. O5.45 and V7.7 allow mortar fire from roofless factory hexes and from roofless Locations of gutted buildings.

 

[Tater]

The only statement I can find in the rules about dismantled Guns being able to move to upper levels is in the B23.85 Rooftop rule. It is specific to rooftops and no other Location in a building.

Well, technically, when dismantled, it isn't a Gun since it is no longer a 5/8" counter (it is a SW in dismantled form). So, in dismantled form, one could move it anywhere in a building. Now, assembling it for use is a totally different question.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Happily, Mules with packed artillery are not allowed to go up stairwells, or we would have additional problems with the rules...:clown:

 

[2 Bit Bill]

Happily, Mules with packed artillery are not allowed to go up stairwells, or we would have additional problems with the rules...:clown:

Rocky Mountain trained mules should :angry:

 

[apbills]

Well, technically, when dismantled, it isn't a Gun since it is no longer a 5/8" counter (it is a SW in dismantled form). So, in dismantled form, one could move it anywhere in a building. Now, assembling it for use is a totally different question.

Correct. I did not word that very well. The only place I can see where a disassembled MTR could be assembled into a Gun is on the rooftop.

 

[pward]

Please give me the rule the red highlighted quote comes from. It's not in my A26.11 nor my A26.14.

I agree that paraphrasing the A26.14 rule you could state that any unit "in a building hex" can gain control over the building, however, you must still meet the requirements of A26.11 - which state you have to occupy the building. If you are not occupying the building, it does not matter if you are in a building hex - you can't control the building.

Again, on preventing control the same thing applies. It is not that you have to be in a building hex to prevent it, rather, you must be occupying the building. That is what A26.11 states. When it states "Location/Hex/Building" it does not mean you can control a building by occupying the building hex. It means
1) you can control a Location by occupying the Location
2) you can control a Hex by occupying the Hex
3) you can control a Building by occupying the Building

Not
x) you can control a building by occupying a building hex.



You missed something in A26.14. You must fullfill the conditions of A26.11 as well - specifically you must occupy the building. Just occupying the building hex is not enough.

Taking control of the building requires entering any hex of that building. Resisting that building control only requires being in one of the building hexes, not being in a building location yourself. The initial question was if an upper level rubble location could contest the control of the building.

The general rule is you must be in the location/hex/building to control it.

The specific rule for buildings says you must be in a hex of the building, not a building location of the building. Interestingly enough, with the exceptions, there aren't any other in-hex places to be other than an upper level rubble location where this would mean anything. Subterranean and rooftop locations are right out in these rules by name. Aerial units never contest or take control, and bypass units never take control either (sometimes contest, but meh...). I can't think of any other locations that could exist in a building hex that aren't excluded by these rules, except for upper level rubble (which isn't excluded).

Even if there wasn't rule precedence "by the numbers", then the general to specific nature of these two rules would determine the actual requirements specified for the building control would take precedence over the general control rule.

You also get into a race condition where the rules refer to each other in their requirements. A26.11 says "see also 26.13-.14 for hex/building Control" and A26.14 says "as long as the conditions of 26.11 are fulfilled"... One of them has to take precedence over the other, or you will never resolve the loop.

 

[pward]

It shouldn't be. Unfortunately, there are no rules that allow it (that I can find anyway)

B23.423 and C2.7 specifically disallow it.

An aside - B23.423 actually prevents mortar fire from a non-rooftop building Location. O5.45 and V7.7 allow mortar fire from roofless factory hexes and from roofless Locations of gutted buildings.

Sure there are rules for firing from a rubble location. There is a rule (probably assumed) that you can fire a gun unless otherwise prohibited. (This is a wargame after all, shooting is fundamental to the play of the game.) There is no prohibition from firing from a rubble location provided the gun size requirements for being there have been met.

There is no prohibition for firing from an upper level rubble location because those prohibitions of B23.423 apply only to upper level building locations, not rubble locations.

Separate how the weapon got there and if it's a legal setup/entry location for that weapon, from the act of firing that weapon from that location.