Is this cheating?

Is using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED cheating?

  • YES - but it's like a little white lie.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    28

bendizoid

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My perfect game is is when I win and my opponent think I deserves it.
I was preparing for a tournament and played ‘Will to Fight Eradicated’ three times in a row against my usual opponent as the German and lost all three. It was strange to me because I usually would win against this player and three in a row was unheard of. The last game in particular I felt I had played as best as I could and still lost so I switched sides and started playing the poles. It was the perfect game because it had achieved its purpose and I had learned. It worked out good because I had to play Rich Summers at the tournament (never easy to beat) and I finally won against Rich, I wisely and with confidence took the poles.
 
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Honosbinda

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Note pockets are NA during play to read.
After we encountered players at Copenhagen tournament that used such in a disclosed manner but eventually discovered after some years of their cheating. Written down plenty of LOS checks for each scenario, record the id of a newly placed concealment counter above key units with certain SWs to track their movement etc

Anyhow, they are the slowest player around, nobody you want to play with anyway.
So, this is interesting. In actual tournament play in Copenhagen, a renowned tournament, players are NOT allowed to read their notes!

The same should be true in VASL tournaments, perhaps? Oh, what a stir this will cause in the vast community!

Tournament VASL button proposal

When on:


-- all HIP functions are rendered inoperative by new VASL programming.
-- all HIP must be recorded in delayed notes (already a requirement of the VASL tournament, thankfully)
-- all other notes must be recorded as delayed notes and no new notes are allowed to be added during the game (recording stack contents, LOS check results, etc.)
-- all notes to be disclosed after the game is over to prevent alternative HIP instructions,
-- tournament mode also activates access to the new chess clock that is added to VASL.

When off:

-- anything goes as far as using HIP for notetaking etc. (reminders to call wife, when to pick up the dry cleaning, and, most importantly, when to go to the bathroom and note when the opponent does).
 
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Sparafucil3

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When on:

-- all HIP functions are rendered inoperative by new VASL programming.
-- all HIP must be recorded in delayed notes (already a requirement of the VASL tournament, thankfully)
-- all other notes must be recorded as delayed notes and no new notes are allowed to be added during the game (recording stack contents, LOS check results, etc.)
-- all notes to be disclosed after the game is over to prevent alternative HIP instructions,
-- tournament mode also activates access to the new chess clock that is added to VASL.
I want no part of such a tournament. ASL code is client side as are all DR's. You either trust your opponent or you don't. If you don't trust me, that's fine there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

I remember when Enrico got all worried about the VASL dice bot and the ability to fix DR's. He posted a proof of concept and pushed random.org. Then I wrote a dice roller that intercepted calls to random.org, placed my own DR's into the stream on my side before posting the DR to the VASL server for your client to read, and then stored my DR's--both the ones from random that were really used and my fake ones--and placed that into stats to be rendered later. It was undetectable. I demonstrated it for a few friends to prove you either play a game where all calculations and random elements are done server side, trust your opponent, or play someone else. All of these measures are an illusion of safety that actually makes it easier to cheat if you're so inclined since people think they're being protected when they're not. As always, JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

Honosbinda

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I want no part of such a tournament. ASL code is client side as are all DR's. You either trust your opponent or you don't. If you don't trust me, that's fine there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

I remember when Enrico got all worried about the VASL dice bot and the ability to fix DR's. He posted a proof of concept and pushed random.org. Then I wrote a dice roller that intercepted calls to random.org, placed my own DR's into the stream on my side before posting the DR to the VASL server for your client to read, and then stored my DR's--both the ones from random that were really used and my fake ones--and placed that into stats to be rendered later. It was undetectable. I demonstrated it for a few friends to prove you either play a game where all calculations and random elements are done server side, trust your opponent, or play someone else. All of these measures are an illusion of safety that actually makes it easier to cheat if you're so inclined since people think they're being protected when they're not. As always, JMO, YMMV. -- jim
Indeed if the random generator can be hacked, it doesn't matter any other precautions. But it's only because that precaution can be defeated. Is it actually impossible to make this random generation less manipulable? Surely it is possible.

If this particular precaution could not be defeated as you claim it can, would that then be a reason to not participate? I imagine you have other reasons beyond this die-roller malfunction that is yet to be made more functional.

It's odd that the random generator was set up as a precaution, yet fails miserably, and this is not well-known. All it does at the moment is bypass the 'questionable' VASSAL roller at this point, if what you say is still true.

That does explain why some hardcore players have insisted on dice and cameras, I suppose.
 

WuWei

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All it does at the moment is bypass the 'questionable' VASSAL roller at this point, if what you say is still true.
Every modern software based pseudo random number generator is most probably orders of magnitudes more "random" than an actual physical die.

That does explain why some hardcore players have insisted on dice and cameras, I suppose.
It is easy (for someone with even basic experience in real time image processing) to write a program that takes your camera stream and just puts the desired number of pips on the face of the die.
 

Sparafucil3

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Indeed if the random generator can be hacked, it doesn't matter any other precautions. But it's only because that precaution can be defeated. Is it actually impossible to make this random generation less manipulable? Surely it is possible.
Not while the code is all client side. Nothing client side can be trusted if you don't trust the person who owns the computer.

It's odd that the random generator was set up as a precaution, yet fails miserably, and this is not well-known. All it does at the moment is bypass the 'questionable' VASSAL roller at this point, if what you say is still true.
It is not within the capability of most people to do, but it is not outside of the ability of most people to learn. If you don't trust what I have to say, ask someone else who understands client/server programming.

That does explain why some hardcore players have insisted on dice and cameras, I suppose.
People don't trust the die roller for other reasons. The built in VASL die roller gets particular ire but I honestly think most of that is psychological. The built in bot passes all tests for randomness. It is sound but like all things generated on a computer, is only really pseudo-random. You can look it up on your own, but with pseudo-random, the numbers are predictable if you can guess the seed. Random.org has a different approach and does a better job of being truly random, but then it is called from client side, sent to my . As I said above, nothing client side can be truly trusted. If the server called it would be as trusted as the people programming it are. Some people just feel better using dice, although people get hung up on them too, especially if there is something other than a pip on the one face. This also triggers into some psychology too. I don't claim to understand it. Even with dice and cameras, I have heard one anecdotal story of someone reaching in, turning a die, and pretending they didn't. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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Every modern software based pseudo random number generator is most probably orders of magnitudes more "random" than an actual physical die.
The predictability is what enables cryptography :)

It is easy (for someone with even basic experience in real time image processing) to write a program that takes your camera stream and just puts the desired number of pips on the face of the die.
That's one way. I could just cut to my own video feed and feed in a DR and leave it on the last frame. My feed would begin with a hand reaching in to pick up the dice and end with the freeze frame on the DR. The deck streamers use would be great for this. Where there's a will, there's a way. -- jim
 

Robin Reeve

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Physical dice may be loaded too.
No legislative system can change minds.
Either we decide to behave as gentlemen, or we fall into an infinite vortex of paranoid attempts to control people.
ASL is a game, with no money involved, so cheating is extremely rare: it would require some pathological need to win in the most disgraceful way.
I never met a cheater in this hobby.
And I am on the side of minimal rules when it comes to organise a competition.
A tournament with complicated and numerous regulations sheds a shadow of mistrust and suspicion which kills a lot of the fun, IMO.
I would never be part of such a thing.
Life is too short and real life is already filled with bureaucratic and oppressive rules systems enough, to bring that s*** into my leasure time.
If I am under the beginning of a suspicion that I could be a cheater, I will call it a day and find a healthier environment to play this wonderful game.
 

Mister T

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von Marwitz

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but as usual, there are unique characters in the world of ASL who don't think full disclosure in tournaments is fair or necessary.

I never enjoy trying to decipher your convoluted Marwitzian logic.
Young man, I don't know you but I witness your best efforts to make me regret that. So far, you may rest assured I do not have the impression that you are easy game but instead a rather trying one.
For sure the Oberst is a unique character. While you might elect to call him 'a dog with an attitude' others might reserve that description for a scenario alike 'The Mad Minute' we are currently living through here. Perchance this was once more too much of Marwitzian or even aberwitzian logic, so I will leave it at rest at this point, recommend myself, and wish you many happy days to come.

von Marwitz
 

Honosbinda

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Honosbinda

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Not while the code is all client side. Nothing client side can be trusted if you don't trust the person who owns the computer.


It is not within the capability of most people to do, but it is not outside of the ability of most people to learn. If you don't trust what I have to say, ask someone else who understands client/server programming.


People don't trust the die roller for other reasons. The built in VASL die roller gets particular ire but I honestly think most of that is psychological. The built in bot passes all tests for randomness. It is sound but like all things generated on a computer, is only really pseudo-random. You can look it up on your own, but with pseudo-random, the numbers are predictable if you can guess the seed. Random.org has a different approach and does a better job of being truly random, but then it is called from client side, sent to my . As I said above, nothing client side can be truly trusted. If the server called it would be as trusted as the people programming it are. Some people just feel better using dice, although people get hung up on them too, especially if there is something other than a pip on the one face. This also triggers into some psychology too. I don't claim to understand it. Even with dice and cameras, I have heard one anecdotal story of someone reaching in, turning a die, and pretending they didn't. -- jim
It's not that I don't trust what you have to say, I just don't know how old your information is, and if something has been done with the client-side roller to fix it since your demonstration with Enrico.

I gather not, but perhaps something has been done.

Certainly, I agree with all the other points (related to this most recent commentary in case you take things too far as you did yesterday, lol)
 
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Honosbinda

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Young man, I don't know you but I witness your best efforts to make me regret that. So far, you may rest assured I do not have the impression that you are easy game but instead a rather trying one.
For sure the Oberst is a unique character. While you might elect to call him 'a dog with an attitude' others might reserve that description for a scenario alike 'The Mad Minute' we are currently living through here. Perchance this was once more too much of Marwitzian or even aberwitzian logic, so I will leave it at rest at this point, recommend myself, and wish you many happy days to come.

von Marwitz
You do know me better than we know you, old bean. For example, you know my real name. You once tried to tell me, when you observed one of my games on VASL, that your real name is Ivan. Is that so?

You certainly should always recommend yourself and enjoy in yourself, I heartily agree with those recommendations, whatever your name is, and for indeed for anyone of any name.
 

Actionjick

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The predictability is what enables cryptography :)


That's one way. I could just cut to my own video feed and feed in a DR and leave it on the last frame. My feed would begin with a hand reaching in to pick up the dice and end with the freeze frame on the DR. The deck streamers use would be great for this. Where there's a will, there's a way. -- jim
When online poker was all the rage I played a lot of tournaments. I would occasionally consider how cheating or card manipulation could occur. Because I played in events that had very small entrance fees. $1.00 or less, I really wasn't very concerned about it, I just enjoyed playing. Why someone would cheat at ASL is beyond me. Nothing is at stake and the consequences of cheating is only a stain upon honor.
 

Honosbinda

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Every modern software based pseudo random number generator is most probably orders of magnitudes more "random" than an actual physical die.


It is easy (for someone with even basic experience in real time image processing) to write a program that takes your camera stream and just puts the desired number of pips on the face of the die.
I've never been a big fan of this camera-proving method and have never tried it and won't. I simply mentioned that some do it and expressed that perhaps this was the reason why.

But it seems we have no way to assure no cheating on VASL in tournaments, as compared to real tournaments. Based on all the information elicited so far.

Perhaps, for this reason, VASL ratings should be separate on AREA from other tournaments that are FtF. I do think that the suggestion had been considered, and most certainly was considered for PBeM type games.

Anyway, the conversation had morphed on the basis of the comment from STAVKA, which has been refuted or at least questioned by Mister T.

Back to the OP, we've got 11 votes that stand in favor of 'anything goes' and 5 votes in favor of 'mutually agreed.' This is hardly an overwhelming margin, even if I am the only one vocal about the latter.
 

Sparafucil3

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When online poker was all the rage I played a lot of tournaments. I would occasionally consider how cheating or card manipulation could occur. Because I played in events that had very small entrance fees. $1.00 or less, I really wasn't very concerned about it, I just enjoyed playing. Why someone would cheat at ASL is beyond me. Nothing is at stake and the consequences of cheating is only a stain upon honor.
Early on-line gambling had a real problem and cheating was pretty widespread. If you know the algorithm being used and are given enough time to watch the flow of "random", it is possible to predict the seed. Since the on-line gambling sites didn't change the seed often enough, it became possible to know where they were in the stream. With that information, it was possible to know what everyone had been dealt and what was about to come off the top of the deck. -- jim
 

Actionjick

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Physical dice may be loaded too.
No legislative system can change minds.
Either we decide to behave as gentlemen, or we fall into an infinite vortex of paranoid attempts to control people.
ASL is a game, with no money involved, so cheating is extremely rare: it would require some pathological need to win in the most disgraceful way.
I never met a cheater in this hobby.
And I am on the side of minimal rules when it comes to organise a competition.
A tournament with complicated and numerous regulations sheds a shadow of mistrust and suspicion which kills a lot of the fun, IMO.
I would never be part of such a thing.
Life is too short and real life is already filled with bureaucratic and oppressive rules systems enough, to bring that s*** into my leasure time.
If I am under the beginning of a suspicion that I could be a cheater, I will call it a day and find a healthier environment to play this wonderful game.
Nicely put Sir.
We had very few rules at Oktoberfest, mainly because we were lazy and didn't want to get involved with such things. We made players pick their scenarios by mutual consent. I suppose someone could have a list of scenarios they wanted to play and have notes about LOS, etc but I don't recall any problems in that regard.

I do remember Fish giving McGrath a dressing down for sharking a newbie but that is a different matter. 🤣🤣
 

Sparafucil3

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I gather not, but perhaps something has been done.
Nothing can be done as long as the call is made client side. Frankly, there is nothing worth cheating over in ASL so it's hardly worth the effort. Add to that, the community is so small that if you gained a reputation for cheating, that shit get's around and you'll find it hard to get passed it. -- jim
 

Actionjick

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Early on-line gambling had a real problem and cheating was pretty widespread. If you know the algorithm being used and are given enough time to watch the flow of "random", it is possible to predict the seed. Since the on-line gambling sites didn't change the seed often enough, it became possible to know where they were in the stream. With that information, it was possible to know what everyone had been dealt and what was about to come off the top of the deck. -- jim
Damn, glad I didn't get heavily into it!! No big deal losing a buck for the hours of enjoyment.
 
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