Is this cheating?

Is using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED cheating?

  • YES - but it's like a little white lie.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    28

Honosbinda

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A6.11 is about LOS checks.
Not about planning one's moves.
When preparing for a game, I often print the map layout, then scribble on it the place where I put fortifications, and some anotations of my tactical intentions.
It is rather absurd to try to forbid that type of planning.
Well, printing the map layout relies on using VASL to being with, which destroys your argument. You need VASL to do that and VASL is used by house rule, so you have to get permission from your opponent.

Aside from that, the problem is, ASL didn't start out with the ability to print out maps or even make copies of them. It was a copyright violation to do that. It still is. What's absurd about not permitting copyright violations, LOL! Just kidding really, but I am sure you get the point.

Only later could we scribble on Cave complex sheets, which did not have map layouts. Maps were not permitted to be copied. Your assumption that this is permitted now, is a violation of copyright. And should be prohibited, unless maps have been allowed to be copied specifically by MMP. Such as permitted for use in HASL.

Edit -- I make this argument in the context of what's good for tournament play, as usual. Why should you be allowed to make photocopies when others are trying to play the game and obey the law and expect you to ask permission, if not from the opponent, but at least from MMP?
 
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von Marwitz

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You don't have to explain the parameters of the discussion to me, I'm quite aware what is being discussed.

I'll make it simpler for you, if you like. Or even if you don't like.

The ATTACKER plotting out intended paths of movement on the playing surface violates the spirit of rule A6.11 for the reasons discussed above.
I did indeed misunderstand you as I believed you would think plotting paths without unsolicited LOS Checks would be ok. But you don't. No offence meant.

But then in the matter itself, we disagree. A6.11 deals with LOS - which is not touched in our case. It does not deal with planning one's moves just as Robin has succinctly laid out:

A6.11 is about LOS checks.
Not about planning one's moves.
When preparing for a game, I often print the map layout, then scribble on it the place where I put fortifications, and some anotations of my tactical intentions.
It is rather absurd to try to forbid that type of planning.
von Marwitz
 

Sparafucil3

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So I am going to change my vote to YES with the explanation that preplotting moves is against the spirit of A6.11.
Just to confirm; in my head, I setup the game and make a plan on turn one to move to point X. Your contention is this is illegal based on the notion that this violates LOS rules? How do we play at all if this is the case? Writing down my intentions is hardly checking LOS and zero difference than sitting down to plan my turn at the table-top. Hell, how can we even EXECUTE a single turn if your belief is this violates LOS rules? As the Defender, I set up. I wait for you to setup. You say let me thing about my turn a moment. I say GG, you violate LOS rules and therefor concede. That's preposterous. I am not convinced you aren't trolling here. -- jim
 

Robin Reeve

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VASL is used by house rule, so you have to get permission from your opponent.
You should abandon that senseless argument.
Using VASL is no more a house rule than playing on an oak table or sitting rather than standing or playing a monday evening rather than a wednesday afternoon.
I am afraid that you have strayed quite away from reasonable thought.
Unfortunatley, the potentially interesting points you could bring up are drowned in a mass of excessive and non rational diatribe.
I don't think debating with you in those circumstances leads to anything useful.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Just to confirm; in my head, I setup the game and make a plan on turn one to move to point X. Your contention is this is illegal based on the notion that this violates LOS rules?
I can confirm that is not my contention.
 

Honosbinda

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You should abandon that senseless argument.
Using VASL is no more a house rule than playing on an oak table or sitting rather than standing or playing a monday evening rather than a wednesday afternoon.
I am afraid that you have strayed quite away from reasonable thought.
Unfortunatley, the potentially interesting points you could bring up are drowned in a mass of excessive and non rational diatribe.
I don't think debating with you in those circumstances leads to anything useful.
You can call something senseless and make it sound good by saying so, just as you might say, 'Marc, just abandon all reason and hope for it will avail you not.'

I won't abandon it because you (and especially you) think I have strayed from reasonable thought.

Think what you like, this debate is not over, my fine Swiss friend.
 

Sparafucil3

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I can confirm that is not my contention.
Then can you restate it because I clearly don't understand the point you're trying to make. There is no difference between me putting my thoughts on paper and just keeping my thoughts in my head. If one violates the spirit of the LOS rules in your opinion then so does the other. There is no logical way around that. -- jim
 

von Marwitz

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You're talking letter of the rules, I'm talking spirit of the rules.
Please correct me in case I should misunderstand you again:

So your points that it lies in the spirit of the rules that the ATTACKER should enter/make its first move on the field somewhat less prepared because he is the 'new kid on the block' while the DEFENDER had had time to 'settle in'. This you see reflected in the written rules, that the ATTACKER usually is not allowed to make pre-game LOS checks. And for the same reason you find too much ATTACKER planning/plotting against that spirit.

Did I get this right?

If yes, how do you see the following questions:

After all, at least in some cases, especially those in which he is the 'Scenario Defender' it could be assumed that he had time to prepare. Would the spirit of the rules as you see them also be violated if the DEFENDER made such plans?

Now on the meta-level:

The ATTACKER has played that same scenario before as the ATTACKER. He still remembers his previous games and has a pretty good 'plan' still memorized from his earlier playing. But he takes no paper notes or other side-notes.

In which way is the 'plan' the ATTACKER has due to his previous playing to be differentiated from a 'paper plan' while not having played the scenario before against the background of the 'spirit of the rules' as you see them?

Edit: Jim beat me to it.

Then can you restate it because I clearly don't understand the point you're trying to make. There is no difference between me putting my thoughts on paper and just keeping my thoughts in my head. If one violates the spirit of the LOS rules in your opinion then so does the other. There is no logical way around that. -- jim


von Marwitz
 

WuWei

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A matter of taste, not rules: I don't like to play against an opponent who has spend vastly more time preparing the scenario than I did. I know that in certain tournaments, players get the scenario list a few months beforehand and a lot of participants play each of those scenarios multiple times as preparation. I have no inclination to do so, so I'm hesitant to attend such a tournament. That's why I organize a "no prep" tournament where nobody knows what scenarios will be played and sides are randomized (expect an announcement for Conscripts!2021 soon). I know that a lot of players don't like that, but they still have those other tournaments. They don't have to come to mine.
 

Actionjick

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Well, printing the map layout relies on using VASL to being with, which destroys your argument. You need VASL to do that and VASL is used by house rule, so you have to get permission from your opponent.

Aside from that, the problem is, ASL didn't start out with the ability to print out maps or even make copies of them. It was a copyright violation to do that. It still is. What's absurd about not permitting copyright violations, LOL! Just kidding really, but I am sure you get the point.

Only later could we scribble on Cave complex sheets, which did not have map layouts. Maps were not permitted to be copied. Your assumption that this is permitted now, is a violation of copyright. And should be prohibited, unless maps have been allowed to be copied specifically by MMP. Such as permitted for use in HASL.

Edit -- I make this argument in the context of what's good for tournament play, as usual. Why should you be allowed to make photocopies when others are trying to play the game and obey the law and expect you to ask permission, if not from the opponent, but at least from MMP?
You don't need to make photocopies, just have extra boards. 😉
 

bprobst

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I won't abandon it because you (and especially you) think I have strayed from reasonable thought.
It's not just him, Marc. You're a loon, and thus I add you to my ignore list (and drop out of this thread). Given our disparate physical locations (not to mention the current state of international travel) it's highly unlikely that we'll ever meet face-to-face, and that's probably just as well. Farewell.
 

hongkongwargamer

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No - it's just something I found helpful to prep a scenario (generally 1st turn only), speed things up and help my sh*tty memory. I brought it up with my regular players and they were ok with it, just wondered what the community thought. Didn't know I was launching this mess!!
No mate. Messes launch themselves. You could have been talking about IIFT and this will happen anyway.
 

Honosbinda

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You don't need to make photocopies, just have extra boards. 😉
That would work! There you go Robin, stop making illegal photocopies and buy up some extra boards and dry erase markers. The boards would have to be in stock, though, could be problematic.

edit -- but then he wouldn't be able to take advantage of the terrain transformations available in VASL, but not in the real game....so it's not a perfect idea, unfortunately!
 
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Honosbinda

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See below for an example of an ad hominem attack, this one by Bruce in a lovely farewell ode to me.

Old Brucie has called me a loon, rather than address the position I've been stating. I guess Bruce thinks I'm going to miss him, which is also quite hysterical (but that's a digression).

So @Chris Bryer, do you think this ad hominem attack indicates weakness on the part of Bruce?

It's not just him, Marc. You're a loon, and thus I add you to my ignore list (and drop out of this thread). Given our disparate physical locations (not to mention the current state of international travel) it's highly unlikely that we'll ever meet face-to-face, and that's probably just as well. Farewell.
Moving on, Robin Reeve seems to think this is a rational argument that ends the debate:

Unfortunatley (sic), the potentially interesting points you could bring up are drowned in a mass of excessive and non rational diatribe.

I'd really love to understand Robin's point of view of wherein the use of VASL module exactly fits into the ASLRB.

I'm all ears, Robin, for a single rational comment on that? I mean, you think you are quite good at attacking me as non-rational, so why don't you tell me your rational reasoning that using VASL is not and does not need to be an inherently be an agreed-upon house rule? Tell me then, how and where and why it fits into the ASLRB?

As a reminder, the rules cited, with great rationality so far (and repetitively because some aren't paying attention), are those pertaining to rules selection in the ASOP ( that is, aside from anything else argued so far, house rules are needed to use the VASL Module). Otherwise, Michael has cited A6.11 as a potential problem for pre-laying HIP components on VASL maps -- and it is.

I don't see anyone actually offering a counter argument based on rules discussions. I do see statements that are truly non-sensical, such as 'writing notes are the same as keeping thoughts in my mind.'

Well, no -- keeping thoughts in the mind is actually not at all the same as writing down thoughts and notes. Everyone knows that from personal experience. No doubt my reasoning will be duly attacked, even in stating this.
 

WuWei

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In the table of content of the electronic rulebook, there's "Chapter L. Online ASL". The chapter itself isn't there, but the days of VASL being a house rule might soon be over.
 

Honosbinda

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In the table of content of the electronic rulebook, there's "Chapter L. Online ASL". The chapter itself isn't there, but the days of VASL being a house rule might soon be over.
Thanks, I was hoping that would be the case! I need to rush over and purchase that right away. That's exactly what's needed, is a chapter on VASL (Online ASL). Great news!
 
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