How best to represent 12th SS 'Training' battalion in 1945

[Alan Hume]

Hey Guys,
I am jotting down some notes for a possible scenario, British versus members of the 12th SS 'Training' battalion April 1945 in Germany (the 12th SS proper would be in Hungary now I think)

The British sources state that the SS were 'fanatic', that is what I kind of would have expected to be honest even if they hadn't stated it
but what I am wondering is the best MMC to use to represent them (and what ELR would be best, I figure a high ELR as they were fanatic even at that time in the war)

As part of the 'Ersatz Heer' and not 12th SS Pz Div proper would they be as good as 'regular' 12th SS troops?
They were intended to replace them so surely they would be but part of me thinks they might not be quite so good
so I was really just wondering what SS MMC to use to represent them

I don't have easy access to my counters at the moment so that doesn't help

Any thoughts very much appreciated guys, thanks

 

[Alan Hume]

Oops, I realise that I should have placed this in the Designer's forum, ah well

 

[wrongway149]

Hey Guys,
I am jotting down some notes for a possible scenario, British versus members of the 12th SS 'Training' battalion April 1945 in Germany (the 12th SS proper would be in Hungary now I think)

The British sources state that the SS were 'fanatic', that is what I kind of would have expected to be honest even if they hadn't stated it
but what I am wondering is the best MMC to use to represent them (and what ELR would be best, I figure a high ELR as they were fanatic even at that time in the war)

As part of the 'Ersatz Heer' and not 12th SS Pz Div proper would they be as good as 'regular' 12th SS troops?
They were intended to replace them so surely they would be but part of me thinks they might not be quite so good
so I was really just wondering what SS MMC to use to represent them

I don't have easy access to my counters at the moment so that doesn't help

Any thoughts very much appreciated guys, thanks

447 with 8 broken side ML

 

[Alan Hume]

447 with 8 broken side ML

Thanks for the input Yeah, they could certainly be that for sure
I just can't get out of my head that they should be 'lesser' SS as they were the replacements and a training battalion
Fanatic 4-4-7's could certainly cover it

 

[Steve H]

Were they armed with predominantly assault rifles and machine pistols or mostly battle rifles? That may better determine their firepower factor vice focussing solely on the morale level.

 

[Alan Hume]

Were they armed with predominantly assault rifles and machine pistols or mostly battle rifles? That may better determine their firepower factor vice focussing solely on the morale level.

good question, what I have read so far just says 'Bazookas and small arms'
I guess if I could find a TO&E for a 'Training' Battalion that would clear things up a bit
but yeah, all I have seen so far is 'Bazookas and small arms'

 

[Robin Reeve]

Oops, I realise that I should have placed this in the Designer's forum, ah well

Moved the thread to the Designers' folder.

 

[Alan Hume]

Hmm, Flames of War did a little write up on this unit
seems that they think they were of good quality (led by experienced NCO's and officers)
but I'm not sure

History (flamesofwar.com)
SS-Ausbildungs-und Ersatz-Bataillon 12 Hitlerjugend proved to be an aggressive and enthusiastic battalion. It was made up of 17- to 19-year-old Hitler Youth recruits led by experienced officers and NCOs. The battalion nicknamed itself Panzer-Teufel (Tank Devils) and were heavy equipped with Panzerfaust anti-tank weapons, as well as rifles and machine-guns, to put their new nickname into action. They also formed tank-hunter groups to actively hunt and destroy enemy tanks. For this purpose they were armed with Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck anti-tank weapons.

But I would agree that 4-4-7 with a broken side morale of 8 would be a good fit, I'm going to rate them as 'Fanatic' as they are described so by the British and maybe give them a couple of good leaders to represent the experienced NCO's and officers

I might put together an SSR to describe their 'Tank hunting' teams and give them a couple of Panzershrecks

 

[Tesgora]

If you have it, you may want to consult Friendly Fire scenario 84 entitled Bazooka Town. It is also set in 1945 with Waffen SS trainees and local Hitler Youths with a cadre of more seasoned NCOs and officers with plenty of portable rocket launchers. The designer, Michael Koch, chose a mix 447s and 436s with a few 548 and some 238 and 228 (probably the dedicated tank-hunters). He added an SSR whereby the Germans have a -1 drm on PF checks as well as a wider use of PF against infantry as in this action it appears the Germans were generously firing PFs at the US force from the 3rd Armored Division.

 

[Alan Hume]

Of course, I'm guessing that maybe Flames of War might 'big up' the unit to entice people to play it but from what I am reading they repulsed the first British attack and they had to se

If you have it, you may want to consult Friendly Fire scenario 84 entitled Bazooka Town. It is also set in 1945 with Waffen SS trainees and local Hitler Youths with a cadre of more seasoned NCOs and officers with plenty of portable rocket launchers. The designer, Michael Koch, chose a mix 447s and 436s with a few 548 and some 238 and 228 (probably the dedicated tank-hunters). He added an SSR whereby the Germans have a -1 drm on PF checks as well as a wider use of PF against infantry as in this action it appears the Germans were generously firing PFs at the US force from the 3rd Armored Division.

Thanks for the heads up, no I don't have that one but it sounds like I should make an effort to get it. Michael is a very good designer so it would be good to see his take on things. That really helps a lot, thanks

hmm, looks like it's out of print though darn, will have to try and hunt around and see if anyone, anywhere has it

 

[olli]

Look up BFP CoS they have think hunter units that you could use as a starting point Alan

 

[Alan Hume]

Thanks for the suggestion Olli,
no go for me though as I don't have it but maybe they mention it on their website

(I had tank hunter teams in an earlier scenario I did years ago, if I can find it I will see how I represented them there too because it might work but I reckon other people have probably done it better than me )

 

[laurent closier]

I figure a high ELR as they were fanatic even at that time in the war

Alan,
Fanatic does not mean these soldiers were experienced. So I would use 8 ML units with a low ELR (2, maybe 3).
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Vinnie]

I would not class them as "fanatic" for ASL. This gives them a lot of advantages which I can see them being entitled to.
By this stage of the WAR, many heer units were surrendering as soon as artillery was ranged in on them. The fact these guys did not would result in them being tabled fanatic.
Good leadership combined with high morale and low elr fairly represents well, led but inexperienced troops. Such formations tended to get results but had significantly higher casualties than more experienced ones.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Even though ELR means experience level rate, I rather see it as endurance level rate.
I would picture those young SS with 447, underscored morale and ELR 5. PF -1 DRM.

 

[Alan Hume]

Alan,
Fanatic does not mean these soldiers were experienced. So I would use 8 ML units with a low ELR (2, maybe 3).
Just my 2 cents.

Thanks, that's a very good point

 

[Alan Hume]

I would not class them as "fanatic" for ASL. This gives them a lot of advantages which I can see them being entitled to.
By this stage of the WAR, many heer units were surrendering as soon as artillery was ranged in on them. The fact these guys did not would result in them being tabled fanatic.
Good leadership combined with high morale and low elr fairly represents well, led but inexperienced troops. Such formations tended to get results but had significantly higher casualties than more experienced ones.

Thanks Martin, I appreciate the input, helps a lot

 

[Alan Hume]

Even though ELR means experience level rate, I rather see it as endurance level rate.
I would picture those young SS with 447, underscored morale and ELR 5. PF -1 DRM.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense

 

[M.Koch]

Alan,
It seems you´re refering to the action depicted in TOT14 "Panzer-Teufel Strikes Back"?!
There the SS is depicted by 658s with a ELR of 4 and a TOT SSR for SS troops which i have not and hand.
It´s an old scenario and back in the days every SS unit was 658. I think Pete mad a good point with 447s and BM 8. About the at start fanatic status i´m not sure. Maybe a ELR of 5 would depict that better or, tougher, a SSR that says a SS MMC that passes a MC becomes fanatic for the duration of the scenario...or so.

 

[Alan Hume]

Alan,
It seems you´re refering to the action depicted in TOT14 "Panzer-Teufel Strikes Back"?!
There the SS is depicted by 658s with a ELR of 4 and a TOT SSR for SS troops which i have not and hand.
It´s an old scenario and back in the days every SS unit was 658. I think Pete mad a good point with 447s and BM 8. About the at start fanatic status i´m not sure. Maybe a ELR of 5 would depict that better or, tougher, a SSR that says a SS MMC that passes a MC becomes fanatic for the duration of the scenario...or so.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your input, much appreciated
It's the same unit for sure though the action in 'Panzer-Teufel Strikes Back' appears to be at the earlier British Bridgehead over the river Weser (in the action I'm trying to cover it is the withdrawn and regrouped survivors of this action that the British are facing).
Yeah, I agree, I think I am going to go the 4-4-7 route. I wanted to make them all Fanatic as the British describe them as such in the book I am reading but yeah, perhaps that would make them too powerful. I am inclined to go with the 5 ELR though for sure. Your SSR idea is brilliant by the way, making them become Fanatic DURING the scenario is a pretty neat way to go

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so I am hoping to get a look at your 'Bazooka Town' scenario for ideas

I'm just getting back into trying to design scenarios after a long lay off so I guess I'm going to get on with this while the enthusiasm is still high. I'm playing through another scenario at the minute with John Martin that I hope to be able to send off to Vic Provost for consideration.