Fords in Shallow Fridgid Streams.

The Purist

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A stream becomes a frigid water obstacle. This does not become dry except for movement purposes.
Good evening, Vinnie,

SSR aside, that is not what B20.41 says. It clearly states that in the case of a dry stream "...it is considered a gully for all purposes,..." not just movement.

By your reasoning a marsh hex that is also dry would still be marsh and not mud flats. The application of B20.41 is the same. And as there is a seeming contradiction between B20.7 and B20.8, E2 is applied and B20.8-B20.82 would stand.

That is my view of the rules as written (RAW) as well as COWTRA.

Cheers.
 

The Purist

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A dry stream is not the same as a gully when there are woods/brush/orchard in the hex: B33....
JR

So far as I know the hex (hexes) under discussion has no mention of woods/brush/orchards being present.

The additional terrain costs and TEM would not change the effects of a Ford in such hexes, however. B20.8 would still apply.

B33.11 notes the costs for hex entry via a stream/gully hex sides or through the other terrain (Woods/Brush/Orchard) with and without the presence of water. The examples given note a dry stream woods/brush hex would cost 4 MP just as it would a gully woods/brush hex as per B19.4. The presence of water would increase the cost depending on its depth as per B20.42-.43

And again, as per B20.41 a dry stream Ford would be considered the same as a gully as dry streams do not exist. One only need pay the cost to move to higher ground without the need for a bog check.

Cheers.
 

Vinnie

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Good evening, Vinnie,

SSR aside, that is not what B20.41 says. It clearly states that in the case of a dry stream "...it is considered a gully for all purposes,..." not just movement.

By your reasoning a marsh hex that is also dry would still be marsh and not mud flats. The application of B20.41 is the same. And as there is a seeming contradiction between B20.7 and B20.8, E2 is applied and B20.8-B20.82 would stand.

That is my view of the rules as written (RAW) as well as COWTRA.

Cheers.
The stream is not dry. The stream is shallow so B20.41 has no application here.
B20.81 is the controlling section and this clearly deals only with movement into the stream. Since B20.7 turns the entire stream into a frigid water obstacle, and this hex is part of the stream, I do not think your arguement is valid.
 

klasmalmstrom

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This is how I see it.

B20.8:
"...but the ford is still at the same elevation as that stream hex, and is treated as a stream/gully hex except as amended below...."

B20.81:
20.81
Movement into a ford stream hex from any direction is treated as if the water depth were one classification shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded).

So per B20.81 "movement into" a "ford stream hex" is treated as if the stream is one level shallower - it doesn't say (and it was rules that way) that hex is treated as shallower (in this case dry) for all purposes - i.e., per B20.41.

Now one can certainly argue that "If Infantry/Cavalry units enter a frigid Water Obstacle without a bridge they are Replaced by the next lower Class unit or Disrupted..." - B20.7 - can be seen as something that is a "movement purpose" - but the Q&A ruled otherwise.
 

Vinnie

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F you treat the hex as "dry" for all purposes then you can place trenches and foxhole in Ford's too. This, for me, woukd be a perverse outcome.
 

Gordon

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If it happens to be dry.
But the levee IS the embankment. So I guess IN the levee would apply to being in the hex containing the levee, while being ON the levee would require being on a bank counter.
 

The Purist

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This is how I see it....<snip>

...So per B20.81 "movement into" a "ford stream hex" is treated as if the stream is one level shallower - it doesn't say (and it was rules that way) that hex is treated as shallower (in this case dry) for all purposes - i.e., per B20.41....<snip>
Apologies Gents but I was away in the country over the weekend (taking possession of what will be my retirement property).

Klas,... thanks for your input but I read the English as very clear - a dry stream hex simply does not exist as a water obstacle (Stream), it is a gully.

In fact B20.81 specifically refers to this case "...treated as if the water depth were one level shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded)."

I am not claiming the hex itself is 'shallower' only that water no longer exist,.... the hex remains at Level -1 but the stream ford is now a gully with no Bog DR for exiting to higher elevation.

These then leads us back to B20.41, noting clearly (again) that a dry stream hex does not exist and is treated as a gully for all purposes - thus it is not a water obstacle, it is not (technically) even a Ford and it is not a Stream.

Movement from an actual stream hex with shallow water to the Ford hex would be entering a gully, not a Stream hex. Movement from the Gully (Ford) to a higher elevation would cost the normal costs without the Bog DR

I enjoyed the debate but I, for one, would never agree to this interpretation of the rules considering the clear English used in the sentences involved. ;)

Cheers.
 

The Purist

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The stream is not dry. The stream is shallow so B20.41 has no application here.
B20.81 is the controlling section and this clearly deals only with movement into the stream. Since B20.7 turns the entire stream into a frigid water obstacle, and this hex is part of the stream, I do not think your arguement is valid.
We will have to agree to disagree Vinnie. The Ford in a Shallow Stream hex reduces the water level from shallow to dry and thus it lacks any form of water (obstacle). This makes it a gully.

F (sic) you treat the hex as "dry" for all purposes then you can place trenches and foxhole in Ford's too.
Technically you could. As the hex lacks any form of water (obstacle) it would be eligible terrain just as any Gully hex would be. If the Stream were Deep the scenario changes due to the Ford now possessing a Shallow Stream as opposed to a Dry Gully.
 
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mgmasl

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There is a big difference between streams and gullies when combined with other terrain. In gullies the other terrain exist IN the depression, in streams no.. this point affects a lot Loses and cost in MFs when moving along the depression
 

klasmalmstrom

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In fact B20.81 specifically refers to this case "...treated as if the water depth were one level shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded)."
IMO, you are cutting the B20.81 quote a bit short:
"Movement into a ford stream hex from any direction is treated as if the water depth were one classification shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded). "

I believe the "is treated...." part applies only to "Movement into" - not in a general sense. IMO, this sentence does not make it a gully hex per B20.41 for ALL purposes. Which is basically what the Q&A says.
 

The Purist

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Klas,

If the Stream Ford was Shallow (Deep Stream) or Deep (Flooded Stream) I might agree. However, the water obstacle (Stream) no longer exists in the Ford hex of a Shallow Stream, it becomes a dry Gully hex for all purposes, not just movement. The fact that a Bog DR is no longer required when exiting to higher elevation only reinforces the point that a dry Ford/Gully is no longer a water obstacle.
 

The Purist

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There is a big difference between streams and gullies when combined with other terrain. In gullies the other terrain exist IN the depression, in streams no.. this point affects a lot Loses and cost in MFs when moving along the depression
In this case B20.41 is even more prominent. If the entire Stream is Dry then it ceases to exist as a Stream and becomes a Gully for all purposes. What I am arguing is that it is irrelevant whether the entire Stream is Dry or if only one hex is Dry (which would normally require a Ford). Other terrain in the hex would be applied as per the pertinent rules depending on the water depth (if any) of the hex.

Cheers.
 
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