Fords in Shallow Fridgid Streams.

Vinnie

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All streams are shallow and fridgid.
"If a non-dry stream is not frozen, but snow is present, the stream is a frigid Water Obstacle. If Infantry/Cavalry units enter a frigid Water Obstacle without a bridge they are Replaced by the next lower Class unit or Disrupted as per A19.12-.13"
There is a ford, at this point the stream is one level higher, ie. dry. Is the stream still a "fridgid water obstacle" at the ford?
 

klasmalmstrom

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There is a ford, at this point the stream is one level higher, ie. dry. Is the stream still a "fridgid water obstacle" at the ford?
Pretty sure it is still a stream and the Ford only affect the movement cost.
 

The Purist

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I don't see how a dry stream, due to being Ford, (effectively a gully) can be frigid. There is (little or) no water.

One might argue only the troopers boots or lower legs get wet as opposed to half or more of the body.

Note 20.81,...."dry rather than shallow;... Then look at 20.41 - "Dry: If a Stream is dry, it does not exist.; rather it is considered a gully for all purposes,..."
 

Vinnie

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That's what we reasoned. It's a CH! product so the fact they got this "wrong" does not surprise me.
 

Vinnie

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I don't see how a dry stream, due to being Ford, (effectively a gully) can be frigid. There is (little or) no water.

One might argue only the troopers boots or lower legs get wet as opposed to half or more of the body.
The stream is shallow not dry by definition of SSR. The fords do not make the stream dry but reduce the level for movement purposes. The frigid section speaks of a "frigid water obstacle" which exists if the stream is not dry. As the stream is defined a s shallow, then it is a frigid water obstacle.

It just seemed a bit daft that the battlefield is going to be totally divided by the streams.
 

The Purist

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Sorry,... is this an SSR? If yes, then ok, the SSR would prevail, I suppose.

However, if the Stream is Shallow (B20.42) and there is a Ford (B20.8) then the Ford/Stream hex is Dry and become a Gully, not a Stream. Frigid/Frozen (B20.7) would/should not apply.

At least, that is the way I read the rules.
 

Vinnie

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Sorry,... is this an SSR? If yes, then ok, the SSR would prevail, I suppose.

However, if the Stream is Shallow (B20.42) and there is a Ford (B20.8) then the Ford/Stream hex is Dry and become a Gully, not a Stream. Frigid/Frozen (B20.7) would/should not apply.

At least, that is the way I read the rules.
I don't think it becomes a gully. I think it becomes a dry stream hex which by the rules woukd still be frigid.
 

The Purist

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Well,... that is the thing, isn't it? ;) There is no such thing as a dry stream hex (B20.41).

Can you post the text of the special rule?

I am curious on what the SSR is trying to describe.

Cheers.
 

RRschultze

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Well,... that is the thing, isn't it? ;) There is no such thing as a dry stream hex (B20.41).

Can you post the text of the special rule?

I am curious on what the SSR is trying to describe.

Cheers.
STREAM - shallow streams (B20.42; it is a non-frozen frigid water obstacle)

KALL RIVER - The KALL RIVER is treated as a deep stream (for historical purposes, it has a slow current that flows East.) It is a non-frozen frigid water obstacle and fordable (B20.8;B21.41) only in hexes defined by fords.

The above are SSR found in CH’s Huertgen Hell module.
 

RRschultze

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Which scenario is it?
Klas

It’s called ‘Raffelsbrand Strongpoint’ from CH’s Huertgen Hell module. I’ve quoted the SSR rules above.

I’m interpreting the rule that if you don’t cross a stream/KALL river other than by a ford (ignore bridges) you will have unit substitution.
 

klasmalmstrom

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STREAM - shallow streams (B20.42; it is a non-frozen frigid water obstacle)

KALL RIVER - The KALL RIVER is treated as a deep stream (for historical purposes, it has a slow current that flows East.) It is a non-frozen frigid water obstacle and fordable (B20.8;B21.41) only in hexes defined by fords.

The above are SSR found in CH’s Huertgen Hell module.
If the stream is defined as Deep - a Ford would make it Shallow - and then there is no doubt it's still a Stream hex, which would cause Replacement even if crossed via a Ford hex. Whether that is the intention or not is another question.

The SSR seems a bit odd to me, defining it as a stream, but then mentioning current (which has no effect in streams, IIRC), and a rules reference to B21.41 - which is only for River hexes.
 

Vinnie

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Well, it is a CH! product so maybe we should not be surprised! :)
That having been said, the general point still remians. I would expect a scenario with frigid ahallow streams to be out there and such may well have fords. I have submitted a Q&A to Perry for a ruling.
To be honest, I'm not bothered which way it goes but I expect a ruling to say the stream is only "dry" for movement cost purposes so the frigid rules still apply.
 

The Purist

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...
KALL RIVER - The KALL RIVER is treated as a deep stream (for historical purposes, it has a slow current that flows East.) It is a non-frozen frigid water obstacle and fordable (B20.8;B21.41) only in hexes defined by fords.

The above are SSR found in CH’s Huertgen Hell module.
Thanks for that. In this case thye Stream depth is going from deep to shallow in the Ford so Frigid rules could apply.

However, the rules are quite clear that a "dry" stream is actually a gully (B20.41). As gullies have no water they cannot be frigid.
 

The Purist

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...The SSR seems a bit odd to me, defining it as a stream, but then mentioning current (which has no effect in streams, IIRC), and a rules reference to B21.41 - which is only for River hexes.
This makes me think the designer may have intended the SSR to refer to the stream as a River (B21) which would require the stream to be SSR'd as flooded and thus a water obstacle. With such an SSR It could thus have a current.

However, as you noted, the rule should then refer to B21.41 but this cannot be done if Frigid and a second SSR would be needed as an [EXC:...] allowing Fording and thus unit substitution.

Whew,... convoluted. It's easier to call it a Deep stream (B20.43) with a Ford (B20.8) and Frigid water (B20.7) and forget about a current.
 
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Vinnie

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Thanks for that. In this case thye Stream depth is going from deep to shallow in the Ford so Frigid rules could apply.

However, the rules are quite clear that a "dry" stream is actually a gully (B20.41). As gullies have no water they cannot be frigid.
That's fine but if you ook at the SSR there are actually 2 situations.
The Kall river and the streams.
The streams are shallow and treated as a frigid water obstacle. These are the things that have fords. It would be easier if it ewas just the river...
 

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That's fine but if you ook at the SSR there are actually 2 situations.
The Kall river and the streams.
The streams are shallow and treated as a frigid water obstacle. These are the things that have fords. It would be easier if it ewas just the river...
I’ve read the rules and have to agree with ‘the purist’ in that the shallow streams become a gully due to the ford increasing the height to ‘dry’ and therefore ‘boots’ wouldn’t get wet and therefore frigid conditions wouldn’t apply. The KALL river is totally separate/different in that it is deep and the fords will decrease the depth to shallow and still frigid, therefore ‘boots’ would get wet and unit substitution would apply.
 

Vinnie

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The Ford is only dry for movement purposes. In my opinion, the whole stream is a frigid water obstacle. I've sent a question to Perry, hopefully we will get a ruling from him.
 

Vinnie

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All streams are shallow and fridgid.
"If a non-dry stream is not frozen, but snow is present, the stream is a frigid Water Obstacle. If Infantry/Cavalry units enter a frigid Water Obstacle without a bridge they are Replaced by the next lower Class unit or Disrupted as per A19.12-.13"
There is a ford, at this point the stream is one level higher, ie. dry. Is the stream still a "fridgid water obstacle" at the ford?
Got a reply from Perry. They Ford's are frigid as well.
 
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