Fords in Shallow Fridgid Streams.

klasmalmstrom

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B20.41 says, "If a stream is dry, it does not exist; rather, it is considered a gully for all purposes."
Yes I know about that rule.

But what I am asking about what rule says that a Ford transforms a shallow stream hex into a dry stream (gully) hex for ALL purposes.

I don’t see that in the B20.8 section (neither did MMP judging by the QA).

So am I missing something?
 

Swiftandsure

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However, the water obstacle (Stream) no longer exists in the Ford hex of a Shallow Stream, it becomes a dry Gully hex for all purposes, not just movement.
I beg to differ.
B20.8 states: "but the ford is still at the same elevation as that stream hex, and is treated as a stream/gully hex except as amended below".

The exception in B20.81only applies to Movement "as if the water depth were one classification shallower", which means that it isn't actually one classification shallower for other considerations.

The exception in B20.82 is that there is no Bog check when exiting a Ford.

So "excepted as amended below" B20.8, a Ford doesn't change the depth of the Stream.
 

The Purist

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Klas, Vinnie,

Yes, B20.8 notes that "... the ford is still at the same elevation as that stream hex and is treated as a stream/gully hex except as amended below." No argument.

The Ford rules apply to both streams and gullies.

The rule then goes on to B20.81 where the water depth is one level shallower than the stream. There is no water obstacle present any longer in a Ford of a Shallow stream. The only level shallower than a 'Shallow" stream is "Dry". A dry stream (hex) is a gully (as per B20.41).

In the case of the scenario SSR that began this thread the Ford cannot possibly be Frigid because there is no water present.

No matter which way I turn the rule book I still see 'dry' stream = gully and therefore not a water obstacle and thus it cannot be Frigid (B20.7). B20.7 requires the stream to be "non-dry" in order for it to be considered Frigid (provided snow is present). In the case of the SSR the Ford is "Dry" because the stream is "Shallow". If the infantry/cavalry splash into the Stream, then they will be replaced by the next lower class. The definitively 'Dry' ford would not trigger replacement because the moving, advancing or routing infantry/cavalry are not entering a stream.

Water present = Stream with all pertinent rules applied
No water present = Gully with all pertinent rules applied

Imagine, if you will, an elite squad crosses a stream and is replaced by a 1st line, The 1st Line squad breaks and routes back across the stream and is replaced by a 2nd Line squad. This squad rallies and crosses the stream again, it is now a Conscript. The Conscript breaks and routes into the stream where it now becomes Disrupted.

All this happens in 2.5 turns or 5 minutes.

Are you sure you want your interpretation to be correct? An SS squad would from 6-5-8 to Conscript in just one turn,.... 2 minutes (enter stream: 4-4-7; break and route across stream: 4-3-6 :eek: ;)
 
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Swiftandsure

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The rule then goes on to B20.81 where the water depth is one level shallower than the stream. There is no water obstacle present any longer in a Ford of a Shallow stream. The only level shallower than a 'Shallow" stream is "Dry". A dry qstream (hex) is a gully (as per B20.41).
It is treated as if one level lower.
"As if" implies that it actually is not one level lower.
 

The Purist

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As squad would not, it has underlined ELR so would deploy and then disrupt.
The answer is not to cross a frigid water obstacle on foot.
Well,... yes that is correct for all sorts of ELR 5 types but you get my point.

As for not crossing the frigid water obstacle on foot, well,... if the scenario is truly representative of the Huertgen Forest then one may not have a choice. Thus the need for a Ford w/o water. The conditions might be better represented by forgoing the stream altogether and simply downgrading part/most of the US Infantry to a lower Class if it is felt the Kall played such a big part in a 10-15 minute battle.
 

The Purist

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It is treated as if one level lower.
"As if" implies that it actually is not one level lower.
Sorry Robin but that is not correct. Or at least the phrase "as if" (conjunction) could have been replaced by "like" (preposition). However, the two have been commonly interchanged in modern English for the better part of a century, driving purist (;) ) grammarians crazy all the while. To treat the Stream level "as if" it is one level lower does not imply it is still at the higher level,.... it means to treat the Ford "like" it is a stream with a depth one level lower. Otherwise there would be no Ford.

In any case, I suspect the debate has played itself out and I remain unconvinced the rules as written describe what the majority want it to mean in the case of this scenario's special rules. Full respect to Perry's ruling, of course.
 

The Purist

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Yes I know about that rule.

But what I am asking about what rule says that a Ford transforms a shallow stream hex into a dry stream (gully) hex for ALL purposes.

I don’t see that in the B20.8 section (neither did MMP judging by the QA).

So am I missing something?
Klas,

I am heading out for the long weekend (RB packed for the journey) but I will explain my reasoning in more detail and post upon my return. Unfortunately, my new weekend home has not yet been set up with internet so I may not be able to post much before Monday. If the town library is open I should be able to post.

What I have found is that if you walk through the movement and other rules for Gully, Stream and Ford hexes of various depths you will find that, depending on the depth, more than just the movement rules are changed by the Fords' presence.

Cheers.
 

Swiftandsure

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If the Ford's depth actually was lower, the rule would have simply stated it.
But it clearly explains that it is treated as if lower in two exceptional cases.
Out of these exceptions, it isn't.
Turning exceptions into a general rule seems wrong to me.
 

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You can lead a horse to water, but they're damned hard to drown.
 

The Purist

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The horse is dead, its flesh flayed from the bones and those bones beaten to powder.

Anyway,.... my argument rests on two points.

  1. B20.81 tells us that a Ford hex is treated as one level shallower than the rest of the stream. Therefore, a Shallow stream has a dry Ford, a Deep stream has a Shallow Ford and a Flooded Stream has a Deep Ford. No other options exist.
  2. The game currently has only four levels that the water in a stream can be. It is either Flooded, Deep, Shallow or Dry.
Since the SSR in question tells us the Stream is Shallow then, as per B20.81, the Ford can only be Dry (even though, in the real world, the ford may have water bubbling and babbling over the rocks and pebbles).

The TEM chart in the Chapter B divider tells us the movement costs for infantry and vehicles to enter stream hexes and their fords. For Infantry, a unit in a Ford cannot gain Crest status (20.9) and this is important because it shows that Fords do more than affect the hex movement costs as some have argued. The physical characteristics of hex itself has now changed.

So,... after all of this I still see nothing that would tell me that a ford hex in a shallow stream can be anything but dry and, due to the lack of water, cannot be frigid.

However, Perry has stated that in the case of the SSR the Ford is still Frigid (B20.7), so that's that. I strongly disagree but my only recourse would be to avoid any such scenario where this might matter (an extremely rare event, I am sure).

It was fun.
 
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mgmasl

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All of us disagree with some rules or Perry´s clearification..

There is a fantastic Which rule do you want to change? thread were one may post rules need a change accordying to each player personal criterium. But be conscious that every year-end all these ideas goes to the trash carpet :)
 
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Swiftandsure

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Perry's ruling is consistent with the rules as written, as many here have underlined previously.
This one is not a Perry Sez which I question.
 

STAVKA

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Yes I know about that rule.

But what I am asking about what rule says that a Ford transforms a shallow stream hex into a dry stream (gully) hex for ALL purposes.

I don’t see that in the B20.8 section (neither did MMP judging by the QA).

So am I missing something?
Here is the written rule in a common-sense-written approach (by Don Greenwood) that in simple logic terms explain that a unit is not in the frigid water up to its belly-button. A couple of inches perhaps. But clearly not soaking wet.

20.8 FORDS: A ford represents an area within a stream or gully hex where the Depression's sides have a gentler slope
and the streambed itself is level and lies near the surface, but the ford is still at the same elevation as that stream hex, and is
treated as a stream/gully hex except as amended below.
 

STAVKA

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The horse is dead, its flesh flayed from the bones and those bones beaten to powder.

Anyway,.... my argument rests on two points.

  1. B20.81 tells us that a Ford hex is treated as one level shallower than the rest of the stream. Therefore, a Shallow stream has a dry Ford, a Deep stream has a Shallow Ford and a Flooded Stream has a Deep Ford. No other options erxist.
  2. The game currently has only four levels that the water in a stream can be. It is either Flooded, Deep, Shallow or Dry.
Since the SSR in question tells us the Stream is Shallow then, as per B20.81, the Ford can only be Dry (even though, in the real world, the ford may have water bubbling and babbling over the rocks and pebbles).

The TEM chart in the Chapter B divider tells us the movement costs for infantry and vehicles to enter stream hexes and their fords. For Infantry, a unit in a Ford cannot gain Crest status (20.9) and this is important because it shows that Fords do more than affect the hex movement costs as some have argued. The physical characteristics of hex itself has now changed.

So,... after all of this I still see nothing that would tell me that a ford hex in a shallow stream can be anything but dry and, due to the lack of water, cannot be frigid.

However, Perry has stated that in the case of the SSR the Ford is still Frigid (B20.7), so that's that. I strongly disagree but my only recourse would be to avoid any such scenario where this might matter (an extremely rare event, I am sure).

It was fun.
Also take note, to support you case further,

That there are two types of "Fording" in ASL,
the dry-gully fording movement, water depth an inch or so... the we have the belly-button deep type of river-fording that is NA if the water is frigid (river designate as both fordable and non-frigid).

21.41 FORDING: Fording may be attempted by Infantry/Cavalry only in river hexes defined as both fordable and non-frigid.
 
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