Fire vs moving unit on a brush/roads (not path)

Will Fleming

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
4,230
Reaction score
361
Location
The Last Valley
Country
llUnited States
This image is from the ASL scenario archive which has some funky looking terrain, but basically the notes at the bottom apply. Brush is brush and not bamboo (竹).

Suppose a unit at first level in (M13) fires at a moving infantry unit in the brush/road hex (I12) that is using the road rate. Are there any hindrances?



DB115_PTO_redo.png
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,279
Reaction score
335
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Looks insane! But I don't see why there would be any hindrance. Brush hindrances only affect same-level fire:

B12.2 Brush is a LOS Hindrance. Being in a brush hex does not affect the LOS of a firing or target unit; it is only the presence of brush in a same-level hex between the same-level firing (or observing/spotting) and target hex that forms a LOS Hindrance resulting in a +1 DRM per brush hex [EXC: see A6.7] to any IFT or To Hit DR, or OBA Accuracy dr.​
I can't tell whether LOS crosses or sneaks between the Kunai in L12 and K13, but that wouldn't matter for the same reason.
 

Will Fleming

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
4,230
Reaction score
361
Location
The Last Valley
Country
llUnited States
I guess I mean in the hex more-so. i.e. is it a -2 (ffnam/mo) shot or a -1 (ffnam) shot?

Poorly written question on my part.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
If moving in brush is not moving in OG, so -1 nam
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,279
Reaction score
335
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
If moving in brush is not moving in OG, so -1 nam
I disagree. Unless there is some SSR to apply, a unit that is moving along the road is in Open Ground. The brush can only apply a hindrance which it does not do in this case since it is not same-level fire. Therefore: -2 FFNAM/FFMO

We do not have a core set of rules for a brush-road, so I can see there being some special rules somewhere for this terrain. But unlike fire perpendicular to a woods- or orchard-road, there should otherwise be no effect from the brush to fire which crosses it from a higher level.

Addendum: B3.3 is worth considering, though (perhaps a Q&A is warranted). But it speaks explicitly about TEM, not hindrances (so I favor my above view):

B3.3 The other terrain in a road hex determines any TEM of that hex. However, if a unit moves into a hex via the road rate it would be subject to Interdiction/FFMO (in the case of Infantry) instead of the TEM of the other terrain in the hex unless the LOS was traced through other non-Open Ground terrain between the firer and target points.​
 
Last edited:

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,475
Reaction score
1,512
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Not only is it -2 but he culd also be targeted at teh point where the road enters the hex as well. This would not be a snap shot and if broken he would be in the hex.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
If LOF not crossing only road depiction I think is a brush hex and a brush TEM.. I think -1..
Rule says "LOS was traced through other non-Open Ground terrain between the firer and target points." and nothing about same-level LOS.. I mean, because crossing the non-OG terrain terrain is Brush -the other terrain in the hex- and so TEM 0 and not OG.. Anyway, a Q&A about this question with half-level obstacles will be wellcome. :)
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
1,134
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Given the information provided it looks like a down 2 shot (FFNAM & FFMO) to me. If one looks at B3.43 it implies that moving along a road is moving in the open and only by expending the appropriate MF/MP cost to enter the non-OG COT in the hex do you accrue the benefit of its terrain. Since no other terrain imposes a hindrance to the shot I do not see how it could be otherwise.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
15,593
Reaction score
2,175
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
Brush-road rules, IIRC, is only present in the Primosole Bridge rules.

If such were added to the Base rules my *guess* would be that FFMO would not apply when the LOS crosses the brush depiction, regardless of elevation of the firer, since the hex is not Open Ground.
 

Philippe D.

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,332
Reaction score
482
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
I think Orchard-Road (B14.6) is a good precedent, so I'd expect it to be at least Open Ground to if the LOS is not hindered and the target is using the Road rate. The woods-road precedent (B13.31) also seems to be a good precedent, indicating that just not paying the increased cost (here, Brush cost) would be enough to be subject to FFMO if the LOS is not otherwise hindered.

Of course here the Brush is different from the Orchard, in that it would not hinder different-level LOS.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
But there is not hinder from brush in the same hex.. this is TEM.. hindrance is betwen initial and target hex, so thinking about using normal brush TEM if the LOF cross the brush depiction in the TARGET hex, as usual with any other obstacle and roads..
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,279
Reaction score
335
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
But there is not hinder from brush in the same hex.. this is TEM.. hindrance is betwen initial and target hex, so thinking about using normal brush TEM if the LOF cross the brush depiction in the TARGET hex, as usual with any other obstacle and roads..
B12.3 Brush has no TEM.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
TEM 0 accordying to TEC, I read B12.3 as “no positive” TEM -I know I read English incorrectly because translating to spanish way :oops:- . Anyway, it’s not OG and so no OG TEM (-1 FFMO) if considered a Brush hex.. Good if any official clearification about road movement in terrains not covered by specific rules..
 

Matt Book

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2004
Messages
1,771
Reaction score
230
Country
llUnited States
I guess you found something to add to the "One Rule I would Change in ASL Thread".....

Odd, you can fire down a woods-gully as long as it is in the gully depiction then the Woods TEM/LOS block are NA, but on a road it is the TEM of the hex.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
Wood-stream hexes are different to wood-gully hexes.. in wood-gully woods are everywhere even IN the gully.. in wood-stream there are no woods in the stream portion, similar to wood-road hexes..
Just read Road terrain from the rules book and IMHO It looks clear when applying OG because road movement.. as noted in post #5 above, when the LOS doesn’t cross the other terrain in the hex. Maybe I will change this rule for Air-attacks or even if height advantage may be applied for all half-level obstacles if anyone interested in redo the rules .:). of course, just a bad joke
 

Matt Book

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2004
Messages
1,771
Reaction score
230
Country
llUnited States
Wood-stream hexes are different to wood-gully hexes.. in wood-gully woods are everywhere even IN the gully.. in wood-stream there are no woods in the stream portion, similar to wood-road hexes..
Just read Road terrain from the rules book and IMHO It looks clear when applying OG because road movement.. as noted in post #5 above, when the LOS doesn’t cross the other terrain in the hex. Maybe I will change this rule for Air-attacks or even if height advantage may be applied for all half-level obstacles if anyone interested in redo the rules .:). of course, just a bad joke
Yeah, I got my depressions wrong, how depressing....

Interesting regarding this rule, a dry stream is treated as a gully so do the trees magically grow in the depression?

It's still odd that in a stream woods hex you can fire down the gully or down the road in woods-road hex and get FFMO, but not in the brush-road hex.
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,891
Reaction score
187
Location
Cadiz
Country
llSpain
Yeah, I got my depressions wrong, how depressing....

Interesting regarding this rule, a dry stream is treated as a gully so do the trees magically grow in the depression?

It's still odd that in a stream woods hex you can fire down the gully or down the road in woods-road hex and get FFMO, but not in the brush-road hex.
There is a Q&A saying trees magically grow... another rule to change? :unsure:. I suppose it has to be SSR depending on each scenario.
I think road rule says any LOS along the road treat the hex as OG, and any road movement is considered in OG if the LOS doesn’t cross the other terrain in this target hex.. so any fire along the road to units moving at road cost gets -1 FFMO avoiding hex TEM/protection
 

Philippe D.

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,332
Reaction score
482
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
TEM 0 accordying to TEC, I read B12.3 as “no positive” TEM -I know I read English incorrectly because translating to spanish way :oops:- . Anyway, it’s not OG and so no OG TEM (-1 FFMO) if considered a Brush hex.. Good if any official clearification about road movement in terrains not covered by specific rules..
Open Ground, of course, has the same TEM as Brush - +0. FFMO is not a TEM, and only applies during movement.
 

BattleSchool

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
4,223
Reaction score
870
Location
Ottawa GMT -5/-4
Country
llCanada
Brush-road rules, IIRC, is only present in the Primosole Bridge rules.

If such were added to the Base rules my *guess* would be that FFMO would not apply when the LOS crosses the brush depiction, regardless of elevation of the firer, since the hex is not Open Ground.
Agreed. But I also think that "Vinne" has a point re A4.132.

Given that an LOS traced from M15 to I12 is not hindered, FFMO would apply provided that the firer in M13 can also trace an otherwise unhindered LOS to any point on the road depiction "where the hexside crossed intersects the road used." (FWIW, PBr17.3 mirrors this thinking, stating that A4.132 applies unchanged.)

...if it pays only the road entry cost, it is subject to FFMO DRM (4.6) in that hex if the LOS can be traced to either of the two target points (a/b below) in that hex without crossing an obstruction in that hex. If the target enters at the road rate, the firer has the option of tracing LOS to either: a) the hex center dot, or b) [any point on the road depiction] where the hexside crossed intersects the road used.
Italicized portion is from second example in A4.132.

Although brush-roads are absent in the ASLRB, I think it's fair to say that A4.132 and B12.3 address the OP's question.
 
Top